Philosophical question gentleman...and ladies

[Billy Chambless]

In short, I believe it is the desire to master a task, and the experience that comes with the desire, that will make a master woodworker more than any tool. As ones skills increase then does the need for good tools for acuracy and efficency.

Well said.

[Gary Keedwell]

I think certain people drift into woodworking for a reason. Deep in their minds they have seen things and wonder how those things are accomplished. A natural curiosity, their minds can see things in 3D, so to speak.
I worked with a very smart and talented machinist that spent a few years as a machine shop teacher in a trade school (high school age). Basically they had two types of machines: a lathe and a milling machine (Bridgeport) He said that in a class of 30, eventually all of them could master at some degree, the lathe. After the lathe, it was off to learn the milling. He said that he would be lucky to have 5-10 of them be any good at milling. Somehow alot of them just couldn't catch on the the extra axis. They just couldn't see things from looking at the blueprint. More then likely those who really couldn't envision were really not cut out for that trade. Just like woodworking....sometimes something isn't for everyone.
Gary

[Bruce Page]

I think it is more person than tool. I have worked with literally hundreds of different machinists and tool makers over the course of 35 years or so. Everyone had the same machinery and the same basic tools. Some were excellent at their craft and others only fair and a few that would never make it above mediocre. You either have the aptitude for it or you don't.

[M. A. Espinoza]

My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.

That is an interesting statement. You didn't mention your level of experience when you bought the hybrid.

Although a better tool does make it easier to get a quality end product I haven't found that the tool makes any difference in overall quality once you learn the quirks of any particular one.

Having worked on cheapo contractor saws and high end Euro sliders and much in between I can't say that any particular tool made a difference in what was eventually turned out. It did have a great affect on speed. Not having to babysit the tool makes a big difference.

So I'm just saying to those with less elaborate tooling that it isn't a prerequisite for quality work. With experience you can make almost any POS do what you need and compensate for its shortcomings.

I don't think I've ever looked at a piece of work either in home or gallery and thought, "That looks like it was done on a $300 saw and that was done on a $5000 saw."

I sat this because I think there is a tendency in these forums to make beginners and hobbyists think that you can't do decent work unless you have "x" tool. The frustration for newer woodworkers would come from not knowing what must be done to work around the limitations of lighter duty tools.

[David Duke]

Fred this is a fantastic thread, great start far the new year.

I for one think think that there are really three aspects to your question, first there are those who aren't mechanically inclined and would never be able to build anything even using the most advanced tools available.

Then there are those like myself who when given semi decent tools and plans or even a picture/sketch can build just about anything. I've always said that if it had a motor on it that I could figure out how to use it. We can even change/modify the plans and or designs to meet our specific needs. But where we have problems is in seeing things in the abstract, I think that this is the reason that I just can't use hand tools, especially in carving I just can't seem to get the right depth or contours. I know its not right but can't figure out how to fix it because I can't "see" it.

Then there is the true craftsman, he/she can "see" a completely original finished piece before they have even laid a hand on the first tool. On top of being able to have that vision they also have the talent to use whatever tools they have at their disposal to build it, be it hand tools or the most expensive power equipment available. The varying degree of quality in these tools will only determine how they get to the final product and how long it takes to get there.

[Wayne Watling]

M. A. Espinoza,

you pulled one statement out of a bunch that tell a different story when read as a whole.

> That is an interesting statement. You didn't mention your level of experience when you bought the hybrid.

I'd been woodworking for about 2 years at that point.

>Although a better tool does make it easier to get a quality end product I haven't found that the tool makes any difference in overall quality once you learn the quirks of any particular one.

If you read my statements as a whole we sort of agree here when you take into account the time spent learning factor. I found that with the Delta there were just too many quirks to get use to. Since I was a relatively new WW I didn't know alot of the time whether it was me or the equipment that was causing certain problems, I didn't want to deal with that for the rest of my woodworking life. It just so happened that I was in the market for a jointer and planer and I knew I would eventually want to get a shaper so I bit the bullet, sold off the hybrid and got the best I could afford. Had none of those issues thereafter.

Again, you should read all the statements of my previous post and take them as a whole.

Wayne

[Andrew Williams]

Consider this:

You may have more experience than you think, since experience is not measured in linear time but in efficient use of memory (both neural and muscular). Those of us who are able to use memory more efficiently gain experience faster than those who do not (i.e. those of us who are doing this out of a personal need to do so, versus the uninterested).

People who have no frame of reference will have difficulty understanding the various steps that you took in order to get from plan to finished product. It may seem to them as if the completion of the work was somehow magical, but they have no way of knowing how long it really takes to do a piece.

Lastly, most Americans (sadly) are incapable of identifying high-quality woodwork. This is not their fault, per se, since most of us have now achieved the dubious distinction of growing up entirely within the era of cheap factory-made goods being all-inclusive.

It is no surprise that people admire your work and feel you are talented, because that is the simple truth. Do not worry about whether the titles are deserved.

[Al Killian]

To me, the tools make life easier. Talent lets someone make fine furniture. I have turned out some really nice peices with tools that should be in the scrap pile. It might take me twice as long, but It will come out just as good as if someone that has invested tons of money into tools. There is nothing wrong with haveing quality machine, if you have the knowledge to make them do what you want them to do.

[Bill Lantry]

"He told me that it was a boatload of talent that allowed me to turn this kind of stuff out. Do you guys and gals really think that is the case?"

Fred,

The problem with all this is that the terms are so fuzzy. What's aptitude? What's talent? What's skill? What, in heaven's name, is a "gift"?

It's a fun question, precisely because it can never really be answered. This is one of those things philosophers argue about over entire pitchers of beer. And the same arguments get trotted out: Plato thought something you could learn, and teach to others, should be called a skill, but other things, music, songwriting, dancing, were arts, and needed 'talent'. He only did this because he wanted to ban all the artists from his republic, precisely because they couldn't explain *how* they did things. But then, he was the kind of guy who looked down on everyone else, from poets to cooks. If you want a good laugh, try imagine the old guy, really hungry, standing in a kitchen full of good pots and and a gas stove, and not having the slightest idea how to cook the eggs...

Aristotle was actually better about this. Interesting quote: "If the art of shipbuilding were in the wood, we'd have ships by nature." Interesting to think about that when you hear turners talking about 'what the wood wants to be.' For Ari, there's nothing inherent in the materials, and there's certainly not some mystical soulful nebulous 'talent' thing out there. He's interested in what effect something has, and how that effect is produced. And elsewhere, he says our most important characteristic is a desire to learn.

So, a few months ago, #2 son was standing in the kitchen, literally trying to figure out how to make an omelet. His mother had handed him a cookbook, and was getting frustrated that he just couldn't figure it out. What she didn't realize is that when she cooks something, even something simple like that, she uses literally hundreds of techniques, lessons, things she's read or seen or discovered through trial and error. It's precisely her desire to learn, her ability to do so, to retain what she's learned, and apply it to new situations, refining as she goes, that makes her the great cook she is. Such, at least, is aristotle's view, and it's a useful one. Yes, when I had her kitchen completely ripped apart, she was able to make great dinners for six with nothing but a toaster oven and a microwave... (now that she has the kitchen, the toaster oven's in the attic... but the key to that is not some inbreathed talent, but a thousand learned and applied lessons. To say anything else would be to demean her work!

Which brings us back to what your friend said. Comradely flattery is a social virtue, and I admire him for having it, and for using it. But it ain't going to help you figure out how to cut that next dovetail, or grind that bowl gouge., or adjust that bandsaw blade so it doesn't drift.

Thanks,

Bill

[M. A. Espinoza]

Wayne,

Kind of got the feeling that you thought I jumped your case personally so I reread your post.

Seems to be two questions here:

1) Can the non-woodworker appreciate fine woodworking.

In my experience some can more than others but not in the same sense that a fine craftsman can.

I agree, typical consumer really doesn't notice anything beyond the finish.

2) Will the quality of tool dictate the quality of the end product

In the beginning it may help a lot (no doubt) but as the woodworkers skill level increases it becomes a little less important but its still helps to have fine tools.

Yes, better tools usually means fewer surprises.

My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.

OK, I'm sure it increased the ease of producing high quality. But the quality of your build could still have been equivalent, just likely would have required a bit more work to get there.

Best,
Wayne

I think I may have focused too much on the last statement. It seems that you may have thought I was trying to change your meaning.

What I gathered from your statement that you were building to a higher quality only because you had a more capable tool. I guess that isn't what you meant.

My opinion is that you had more experience to go along with the better tool and the experience level had more to do with your build quality than the tool. The Delta Hybrid is considered to be a capable tool, not a cabinet saw for sure but it will produce accurate work if properly tuned. So will a contractor saw, jobsite saw, etc. Their output may require more work afterwards to get to the desired result is all.

No hard feelings, maybe I didn't quite get what you were trying to say. But I did want to say something in case someone was reading and thought that anything less than a cabinet saw wasn't going to produce good quality.

[Dave Stoler]

But I beleive a desire to do the work plays a big role..You have to WANT to do it.
We all make our share of mistakes and it,s easy to get discouraged..It,s staying with it that makes us better. Spend an hour on a peice only to mis-measure or slip on a cut and trash it, then have to start over.Without the desire it would be easy to move on to gardening .

[Billy Chambless]

After reading this thread a few times, it occurs to me that there's another issue: patience. Given the same skill, it takes a lot more patience to do good work with limited equipment. (For some of us, substitute "attention span" for "patience".)

[alex grams]

A good thread with a good conversation. Now, my 2 cents:

It is all about patience. Tools help you do the job better and more efficiently, but having patience and dedication to learn and apply things is probably about 90% of what it takes to build stuff.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

That's a very good question.

I look back on my first projects and have to laugh... they are rough and were built with a circular saw and some nails. The funny thing is one of them is still in my living room and my wife won't let me get rid of it.

Over time I have improved the quality of my tools and my work has improved. Does that mean that I am producing a better product because I have higher quality tools? I don't really think so, over time I have learned better and better ways to do things and have found out some of the places where time can be cut and time can not be cut.

If I gave my shop to a few of my friends they wouldn't produce anything better than what you can buy at wal-mart.

The dedication to quality and doing it right doesn't come from the tools, it comes from the passion of the person using said tools.

[Jim Dunn]

To me the word is "imagination". Sure tools and talent do lend themselves to the finished product, but if you can't imagine how to do or see something then you'll fail. It may look OK to the untrained eye but your imagination talents will bring even the most difficult project to the end.

I hope some of the above makes sense As my imagination runs to plans and that isn't really imagining anything.