Dumb Dovetail Question

[Circa Bellum]

If you look at a lot of period furniture (pre 1860) you notice that the pins in dovetail joints are very skinny. Most folks these days that I've seen cut the pins fatter, even when doing them by hand. I know that the old cabinet makers had practical reasons for doing everything they did the way they did it. Does anybody know why they would make the pins so thin? And do folks these days do them fatter trying to make them look more like machine made dovetails? Just curious.

[mike holden]

The thin pins are called "london pattern" and are a style, nothing more.
In the 1700's England set the tone for what was fashionable here in the colonies, albeit we lagged by the time consumed by ocean voyages.
Mike

[Sam Yerardi]

Circa,

Good question! Hard one to answer too! I was looking in an old book 'The Manufacturer and Builder, Vol. 1, 1869' and there is a section on dovetails where the author says the following: "...In laying out the pins very little care is required. It is a common practice to mark them off at random. Care must be taken to leave the outside pins nearly twice as large as the inside ones. " This makes me think that perhaps the pins were typically made smaller because of the practice of making the end pins nearly twice the size of the internal pins. If the internal pins are larger, then the pins on the ends would be significantly larger. Just a thought.

[James Mittlefehldt]

It might also depend on who cut the dovetails. If you read any manual of carpentry, an older one that is, they were taught how to do dovetails as well as cabinet makers. In these parts furniture from the early 19th century such as blanket boxes and flat to wall cabinets, were often as not made by the same guy who built the house.

I have noted in these a great deal of variation in the quality (in terms of appearence) of these pins. Some look to be done almost haphazardly while others are quite neat. Generally when you atart getting into finer furniture like dressers (locally called bonnet chests, and usually in the empire style) the pins tend to be finer and better executed on the front of the drawer though often as not the pins and tails on the back of the drawer look to be done by someone else, perhaps an apprentice.

If you want to see really tiny pins try and find some English furniture from the 1920's in the art deco style. There was a fair bit of that turning up here for a while a few years back, and the dove tails on the drawers were still hand cut, but with the most maddingly tiny pins I have ever seen.

This is merely based on my observations, and might be nonsense, but I find this sort of discussion fascinating.

[Marcus Ward]

I was actually thinking about this question last night while cutting maddengly tiny pins using a newly sharpened smith and sons dovetail saw and a 1/8" chisel. When you're making the dovetails cutting out the waste between the pins takes about the same amount of time no matter how big or small the tails are, but when you're cutting out the waste between the tails, very small pins cut out in no time flat. Making small pins is simply faster. However, I've noticed once I get a pin so small that the top edge is 1 saw kerf wide, I have a horrible time trying to make them smooth and even so they look good. 3 saw kerfs wide, no problem. I think its because a 1 or even 2 saw kerf wide pin leaves the side of the saw unsupported when starting the cut between the tails and so I have a hard time getting it straight and even. Just my 2 cent observations.

[harry strasil]

James is correct about the drawer back dovetails, they were where the apprentices learned to cut dovetails. almost no one pulls a drawer all the way out so they are almost never seen. Time was valuable back then, and instead of having the apprentices just practice on scrap scantlings, they were put to work doing something that would actually help pay for their training.

If you really scrutinize some of the old furniture pieces, you will find other places and things that an apprentice had done. On some old furniture that has the bottom cut in a decorative shape, just reach down and feel of the edge. often times its just sawn and nothing else done. Or you may feel the marks left from a hand rasp.

As to the real narrow pins, as has been said before, it was a fad of the times. In some places you will read that extra care had to be taken with the drawers as the drawers were subject to racking and the tiny pins would break, some old furniture even have nails to hold the drawer front together after the tiny pins failed. In an effort to camafloge the nails sometimes the nails were set below the surface and match sticks were driven in to hide the heads.

[Circa Bellum]

great discussion on pin sizes, I appreciate all the info. I've noticed the back joints too. Often it's just the two half pins at the top and bottom. Those guys didn't waste much effort or materials on stuff that didn't show or matter. Maybe being quicker to clean out is the key.