table sawless shop

[Jay Brewer]

Wow, look at all the posts from NC, thought I was on the wrong forum . I think you all ready know what I am going to say . If you are getting out of it professionally, then I can see it. It would be one thing to go from a traditional table saw to a GSS, but to go from the saw you have now to a GSS??? ( I know how much you love your saw ) . That would take some getting used to. I think a nice cabinet saw w/ a sliding attachment like a Jessum and a GSS would make a good combo.

I think you already have a GSS?? Build your next project with only it and see how you like it. Hope it works out for you.

[Bill Wyko]

I have a small shop so long rip cuts are done with my ts75 on saw horses outside, but when cutting small or narrow pieces, the table saw it essential. For my opperation I need both.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Hi Paul,
Putting all the guided systems and straight edges in one bag and looking for an answer is very confusing.

Guided systems come in many ways. Similar to the tablesaws.
(Portable, contractor saws, cabinet saws, sliding table saws, EU Format, etc.)

Prices starting from $30.00 (BORG) all the way up to $1500.00.
Here is the latest from the guided systems and the Dead Wood Concept.

This setup is the EZ-PBB2550. ( Power Bench with the Bridge)
Offers a rip fence ( like the tablesaw)
Squaring stops ( like the sliding table saw but without moving the wood)
Extendable table top for supporting oversized panels.
Same setup can be used for routing, M@T, Fluting, etc. (With the SRK)
The Bridge can be removed and the table can be used as a Bench.
The rail on the Bridge can be used off the PBB.
The list goes on and on but I don't want to be taken wrong
or start another bad debate.

Please, take a look at this video and you can see why I replied to your post.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=AiJJQp1EPKI

Thanks.
Dino Makropoulos
Eurekazone.

[Dan Barr]

I think having both is really the best way to go.

i hate ripping an entire sheet of plywood on my tablesaw. it just does not work out in my 2 car garage/shop. GCSS does that just fine.

would i want to give up my miter sled though? H#!_!_ NO!!!

they both have many advantages.

ciao,

dan

[Burt Waddell]

Next question: If you only have a Guided saw system do you use other means to rip/crosscut soild stock (bandsaw, miter saw, etc....) ?

I'll try to respect your request for no brand names but since some things are used by only one company it may become obvious which system I am using.

A guided system, using both the rails and the power bench, has assumed all cutting duties on job sites for me.

In the shop a unisaw with a stock feeder is used for bulk ripping only. (example: when we start a kitchen, we rip all the hardwood at one time.)

I have a power bench that I refer to as the EZ Uni that I use for all the cross cutting of hardwoods. The length stop is a unifence. Accuracy, as always with a unifence is great. I use it a lot for gang cutting of face frame and door components. The sliding miter saw is for sale and I sure wish someone would buy it so I can get it out of my way.

Plywood is processed on a large power bench. It is large enough to handle a full sheet of plywood and do a rip cut.



Next question: Any regrets in making the change? Advantages?
Drawbacks?

No regrets. Advantages: Quicker, easier, safer and I expend a lot less effort doing the work.

Drawbacks: It took a little while for me to learn how to employ the tools properly but that was time well spent.

Now for you guys that do not know me I have owned a lot of machinery (contractor saws, cabinets saws, european sliders, guided saw system), and have done/do this professionally. My questions are from the actual use of a guided saw shop with no other cabinet saw or european slider in use in your shop. I have had both but have never only a guided saw system.

Paul,

When I started with the guided system, my assistant was bitterly opposed to the guided system. When he started using a square a little, he quickly fell in love with the guided systems. He now has his own guided system for hobby use at home. Later we moved into the power benches and he is now gathering parts to build his own power bench. He is working on the best way to employ the rail system from a BT-3000 on a power bench.

I agree with Dino's comments about it being unfair to group guided systems together. That is like grouping all table saws together. I know that the guided system that I now use is vastly different than the same brand that I started using about 3 years ago. And the system that I will be using at this time next year will be vastly different from the one that I have now.

Burt

[Joe Mioux]

You know, you see these old cabinet shops on TV or on the internet doing really remarkable work with minimal tools.

The one thing you never see a good cabinet shop lacking is a good table saw.

Simplicity, think simplicity. You always see as the main tool in any shop is a table saw. Sometimes it is a really really old very heavy industrial TS that someone rebuilt to suit the needs of their small pro shoop and other times it is some very talented person owning a high dollar saw working hard to turn a profit.

All I have to do is go to work, walk through the greenhouse range out the back door walk another 100' and find myself in a garage of a master carpenter/woodworker.. His tools? some gold colored Craftsmen tools, circa the 1950's amd a Craftsmen contractors saw with the waffle wings.

It really doesn't matter. For me, this is a hobby. If I can afford to buy a MM315 slider and pay for it I will and I don't have to justify my hobby's expenses to anyone. As long as it is in reason.

For a pro shop, yea you do have to justify the expenses.

hth
joe

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Paul,

This question comes up about once a week on www.*nonamegcss*ownersgroup.org and there is about an equal division of folk who say a tablesaw is a total waste of space and those who would not be without one. Personally, I have both and will stay that way. If I had to, I could certainly do without a TS, but it does some things faster and easier. But the GCSS does other things faster and easier.

If you held a gun to my head, I would probably choose the gcss, but miss the TS.

[Ed Brady]

I have been reading posts and asking questions at Sawmill Creek for some time in preparation for setting up a shop for my hobby. I'll be making furniture, doing home improvements and making small items like boxes and clocks. I have owned a Shopsmith with jointer and bandsaw for over twenty years but I have always wanted a really nice and powerful table saw and had just about decided to buy a PM2000 (or maybe stretching to a SawStop).

Then I started looking at guided systems. In fact, someone on this forum suggested that I do that research before committing to a TS. I have a small (217 ft2) shop, so room is a big factor. Fitting in a cabinet saw, outfeed table and work/assembly area was just not working. So I made the decision to go with the system not named here and I am not going to buy the TS I have coveted all these years.

When I get my shipment of parts soon I plan to make a 4' x 6' power bench that will allow me to do most (if not all) of my sawing and routing with precision and safety. The bench will be based on a torsion box assembly table design from FWW (Marc Spagnuolo) with guide system components attached. By the way, the particular company I am buying from is custom sizing some of the pieces to fit my design. Pretty nice.

So when I am done I'll have one table with cabinet base that I can use to lay out projects, store tools, rip, crosscut, rout and glue/clamp/assemble. It will be very versatile (not to mention cost effective) and it will fit beautifully in my space. I still have the Shopsmith table saw and other functions if needed, plus I'll keep my router table and SCMS -- at least for the time being. After I get all this up and running I'll post some thoughts and pictures.

I am really excited about discovering a new way to work -- one that challenges my creativity.

Thanks,

Ed Brady

[Scott Seigmund]

Paul,

I've used guided systems extensively in the field, and also run a three-TS shop. As a professional, your needs will be driven by the type of work you are doing. If you use sheet materials extensively for many identical parts (i.e. cabinets) there no way you can give up table saws. One setup for many cuts. With the guided system, you have many setups for many cuts, and accuracy form part to part will be reduced. Also, making many small components, such as drawer sides would be tedious on the guided system.

Don’t discount the ability to mount a power feed on the TS. For serious ripping, this is the only way to go, and one of the biggest safety improvements for the shop. I seem to recall a study some years ago that implicated the TS as the tool responsible for the overwhelming majority of wood shop injuries. It’s easy to become complacent while doing repetitive tasks. A power feed will deliver consistent cuts far better than the human motor, and keep hands away from the blade while providing significant protection against kickback. Woodworking is now a hobby for me, but I still have a power feed for my TS.

Scott

[Joe Chritz]

I love my guided saw system and use it pretty regular. Maybe I am missing something but I have never been able to process a full kitchen of sheet goods into panels without using the TS. There always seems to be a bit of difference in the width from sheet to sheet. Just enough to notice.

Consequently I break all sheets down by cutlist and trim them on the TS with a fence.

Personally I see them as two different tools with overlapping functions. I can function with just a TS or just a good rail system but neither can fully replace the other without some compromise.

Joe

[David Parker]

This is a really interesting discussion. Since I currently have neither TS nor rail guide system, I find it really helpful in deciding which way to go in my tiny shop I'm putting together. It seems that people prefer whichever system they feel most comfortable with and can do the jobs that they require.

From a physical point of view, it seems that a bench fence system with rail guided circular saw could be made very much like a table saw. In one, the saw moves and the wood is held stationary, and in the other, the wood moves and the saw is held stationary.

I'd love to see the setup that Ed is putting together. It may be just what I need in my space, which is smaller than his. What a great forum this is!

[Rob Will]

I can see using a guided saw for breaking down sheet goods but when it comes time to do some serious ripping......you have to like the power and quick setup of the TS.

Rob

[James Biddle]

Has anyone that has converted from a TS & guided system to a guided system only been able to realize any actual floor space savings or did the TS space simply get replaced by an additional table? I currently use a guided system to break bown all my sheet goods in the garage and have a second one on a small table in the basement. I worry that if I got rid of the TS that I would need to fill it's space with a larger table to accomplish the same tasks. If that's true, then the only reason to get rid of the TS would be to generate some cash. Not a significant amount of cash would be generated by selling my Jet cabinet saw (as with a $$$ euro-saw) and its a one-time event. But, if there's a big space savings to be had, it makes the thought more interesting.

[Randal Stevenson]

I think I could do without the TS except that repetitive work is much faster on the TS and if you wanted to make a bavel on a board that is past 45 you are out of oluck with the GSS (like making raised panel cut on the TS with board standing up resulting in 10 degree bevelled edge).

Ben

I figured out a way around that with a guided system. Just like you do with other things on TS, you have to build a sled. However some CS, do go more then 45 degrees (really wish I knew what key combination under Linux gives me the degree symbol.)

I tried it and gave up. Luckily I didn't sell my tablesaw when I tried. My newer guided saw is better from a usability point of view, but I still can't imagine regularly using it for ripping stock for the reason Ben mentioned. There are positioning systems available, but in my experience a lightweight system isn't going to have the ridgidity of a good solid table saw fence. My fence stays put, the positioning aid I used flexed up to 1/8" with reasonable pressure. My tablesaw fence locks down square every time. The positioning aid I used relied heavily on you making sure you were square every time. I use my tablesaw for joinery as much as cutting stuff to size. I'd rather run a bunch of dados and/or rabbets with the table saw than a router any day. For one thing the table saw is going to spit a lot less stuff into the air and onto the floor than the router and for another it is a lot quieter. Another issue--there are only a couple places to go for technique on the guided saw systems. With a table saw there's hundreds of books, magazine articles, etc. on technique.

Yet more reasons why some use TS fences, and we all have choice (a REALLY good thing) in this country. As posters like Nissim Avrahami points out, other countries have restrictions on Dado's/rabbets.

As to the where to find information, I personally see that, as the any GCSS problem.

Hi Paul,
Putting all the guided systems and straight edges in one bag and looking for an answer is very confusing.

Guided systems come in many ways. Similar to the tablesaws.
(Portable, contractor saws, cabinet saws, sliding table saws, EU Format, etc.)

Prices starting from $30.00 (BORG) all the way up to $1500.00.

Thanks.
Dino Makropoulos
Eurekazone.

Should be ended there IMHO. While TS all have different price points and designs, the one idea they SHARE with GCSS, is they cut wood. There are IDEA's one can and should listen and learn from others techniques, they can allow us to improve ours. You had a kid best you in speed last year, and he had never used a system, yet you still learned something.

Paul,

When I started with the guided system, my assistant was bitterly opposed to the guided system. When he started using a square a little, he quickly fell in love with the guided systems. He now has his own guided system for hobby use at home. Later we moved into the power benches and he is now gathering parts to build his own power bench. He is working on the best way to employ the rail system from a BT-3000 on a power bench.

I agree with Dino's comments about it being unfair to group guided systems together. That is like grouping all table saws together. I know that the guided system that I now use is vastly different than the same brand that I started using about 3 years ago. And the system that I will be using at this time next year will be vastly different from the one that I have now.

Burt

Burt, TS get grouped together ALL the time to learn about idea's and techniques. It helps people develop their own methods and idea's based on what they learn, and informs consumers on differences between specific models, which can let the consumer make the choice that is smartest for them. (Customers aren't idiot's, even though sometimes they seem like it)
As for your last statement: "And the system that I will be using at this time next year will be vastly different from the one that I have now."

That is EXACTLY why they should be allowed to be grouped together. Systems AND idea's expand, and shouldn't be limited by brand, but by the users OWN ability to foresee needs, idea's and their own capabilities.

You know, you see these old cabinet shops on TV or on the internet doing really remarkable work with minimal tools.

The one thing you never see a good cabinet shop lacking is a good table saw.

Simplicity, think simplicity. You always see as the main tool in any shop is a table saw. Sometimes it is a really really old very heavy industrial TS that someone rebuilt to suit the needs of their small pro shoop and other times it is some very talented person owning a high dollar saw working hard to turn a profit.

For a pro shop, yea you do have to justify the expenses.

hth
joe

Actually Joe, I grew up knowing others that the center of the shop was the RAS. I also grew up knowing that my grandfather was somewhat dragged into the tailed tool age (although he died long before he could pass any neander knowledge). He built things out of need, not want (which is now how too many of us spend). While his stuff was functional, it wasn't always pretty (depression and WWII leasons).
I have a friend who when he got married years ago, he (bought/was gifted?) a circular saw with a table mounting kit (the old converts to a tablesaw) and a router, and bits as needed. While he did do home fix it type stuff, he also got into woodworking as a way to relax, and the two examples I saw of what he built (including a bumper pool table), WITH those tools are already beyond my current capabilities and by others train of thought, should have been above those tools.

I agree the tools DON'T make the skill or talent, and in a pro shop, they can speed up efficency (cost verses profit). But that doesn't mean the TS has to be the center (there are other schools of WW like turning, etc)

This board, like others is about idea's, and sharing of knowledge. Zelots from ANY tool, need to remember that and listen to the whole question and the spirit of the question. Until we get over this, and keep having wars (two main brands, but where I bought my first one from pushed another entirely (nonexclusive wars) GCSS, as MORE THEN A CONCEPT, is going to be both a hard sell, and a HARD THING TO LEARN about. Not all systems are designed the same, and that is BY CHOICE. Different design goals and idea's should not be a limit to the idea that User of system A, can learn from user of system B, that "OH, you use it for that function, I never thought of that".

I do hope we can continue this peacably

[Randal Stevenson]

Has anyone that has converted from a TS & guided system to a guided system only been able to realize any actual floor space savings or did the TS space simply get replaced by an additional table? I currently use a guided system to break bown all my sheet goods in the garage and have a second one on a small table in the basement. I worry that if I got rid of the TS that I would need to fill it's space with a larger table to accomplish the same tasks. If that's true, then the only reason to get rid of the TS would be to generate some cash. Not a significant amount of cash would be generated by selling my Jet cabinet saw (as with a $$$ euro-saw) and its a one-time event. But, if there's a big space savings to be had, it makes the thought more interesting.

Think about your table design, verses your TS. You have your TS, the space in front and back you have for infeed and outfeed. How long of pieces do you work with?
If you design your table accordingly, then you only have the length of the board, and you could design it in such a way to fit on stands/legs, so it could be broken down and leaned against a wall (or raised up in the rafters, etc). You could also design it to fit over your TS, until you decide what works FOR YOU. As selling the TS, is a one time money event, and that money will either go for more tools (tableparts), or wood, only you will be able to decide gain or loss.