It's quiet in my shop now

[Marc Casebolt]

Hello to all of you neander types down here.
This is going to be my new home now. I just sold ALL of my power tools, and am greasing up the the hand tool slope. I had a small custom furniture shop that I had to close down (long story), so am now re building my garage shop as a nice quiet, clean, and fun place to build stuff as a hobby.
I have allways used hand tools to some degree, but now need to learn to do basic things without a table saw, jointer, planer,... This is going to be fun, and I have a lot to figure out. I am luckily in no rush to get projects out now, so I can take my time to get it right.
I have a good collection of chisles, all sharp, a few planes, mostly in good condition, a good solid bench, but my question right now is about saws. I've got a nice dovetatil saw, a couple of Xcut back saws, a few japanese saws, and that's it. What I want is to get some panel saws, and to fill out what I need to break down lumber etc.
I've read a bunch of stuff about the subject here and elsewhere on the net, but am still unsure about what exactly I want or need. I plan to mostly buy used saws, and learn to sharpen them.
Here are my questions for now;
Panel saws. Xcut -- Hard wood PPI, soft wood PPI
Panel saws. Rip ----Hard wood PPI, soft wood PPI
Do I really need different PPI for hard and soft woods? Anyting else I need in a panel saw?
I would like to hear your opinions and ideas about putting together a group of saws to get me started. I'll worry about having too many saws later.
Thank You,

Marc

[Sam Yerardi]

Marc,

Welcome to the quiet world of hand tools! For xcutting and ripping with panel saws, I use the following:

Ripping
One rule of thumb is to not use a saw with less than 4 teeth but no more than 8 for the thickness of board you're working. For most boards ranging from 1" to 1/2", that could range in PPI from 4 to 12. Also keep in mind that PPI is a bit different than TPI. PPI is one more than TPI. It may not seem that way at frist thought but draw it on a sheet of paper and you'lll see what I mean. I use an 8 TPI panel saw for ripping. A universal range would be 6-8.

Crosscutting
For crosscutting the rule is about 6 to 10 TPI for the thickness you're working. I use a 10TPI for finer work and an 8 TPI for rough cutting.

As far as the difference in saws between hardwoods vs. softwoods, typically you will use a finer set for hardwoods and a coarser set for softwoods. The finer the teeth, the smoother the cut.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I use a 5½ PPI rip and an 8 PPI crosscut for my two panel saws. I use them for both hard and soft woods as I'm not worried about the finish these saws leave. They are for rough dimensioning only so they just need to be sharp and have enough set that they don't bind in the cut. All my finish cuts are done with finer pitched backsaws, unless I'm cutting a large panel to size, in which case I clean the rough panel saw cut up with a plane afterward anyway. A deep knife line helps in these situations to eliminate torn fibers.

[harry strasil]

I think Sam left something out, I believe he was refering to tooth engagement per the thickness of material you are cutting.

I have 4 basic saws, 5 ppi rip, 8 ppi crosscut, 12 ppi panel, backsaw, dovetail saw, in the handled saws. now bow saws and frame saws that's a different story.

[Sam Yerardi]

Harry's right. The actual engagement of the number of teeth is not necessarily based on the thickness of the board - it's the thickness of the wood that the blade is engaged with. When you are sawing at an angle (most of the time) your actual width is much less. Good point Harry.
I use a bow saw and a frame saw and I highly recommend them. The bow saw works for most scroll work I might do with a band saw, and I use the frame set with a ripping blade.

[John Dykes]

Please keep posting on the problems, hurdles, joys and pains of your... evolution. I will follow it closely.

I have 1/2 of a garage, and don't have room for a long, wide sturdy bench. My contractor's saw, planer, steel tabled router table, dust collector, and jointer all are in the way.

I keep toying with the idea of a selloff such as yours.... Or maybe the jointer first. And buy some hard 8/4 maple...

Regards,
jbd

[Marc Casebolt]

Thank you gents,
I like the idea of bow and frame saws, and have planned to make a few. Where do you get the blades? I was thinking about using pieces of band saw blade. Would that work or do I need something stiffer? Also what width of blade should I start with? I'm thinking that a 3/4" blade for ripping, and 3/8" or 1/2" Xcut, smaller for scroll work. Am I even close?

Thanks again,

Marc

[Sam Yerardi]

Marc,

You can blades from Woodworker's Supply, Rocklers, actually any of the larger woodworking supply stores. You can even find the saws and the blades on ebay.

I made my bowsaw from a set up plans. I made it out of padauk. I used standard avaliable bowsaw hardware & blades. I think I got mine from Garret Wade. May not have been more than $20. Depending on the hardware, the blades will usually have small holes at each end so using old bandsaw blades might not work for you. The blade is about 1/4". Using a bowsaw is like riding a bike - once you try it you instinctively know how to use it. The interesting thing about a bowsaw (and the frame saw as you'll see below) is you guide the cut by turning the handle. I start by sight downward and making sure that the blade is flat and not twisted. It could normally be twisted from the previous use because the handles turn, which they are supposed to do. I hold the bowsaw with my left hand and let it do the back & forth motion while I slowly turn the blade if need be to keep it cuttin straight while I am using it.

The frame saw I definitely got from Garret Wade for around 50-60 bucks but I'm not sure if they still carry them. There are several different types, German, Danish, etc. Mine is Danish style. I'm pretty sure the abovenamed sources carry them. The blade is about 1 1/8" wide, and about 24-26" long. Mine is set for ripping. Use it the same way as you use the bowsaw. One difference that you have to get used to is when you are cuttin down past the frame brace in the middle you have to turn the handles so that you are still cutting down but the saw is at an angle. It feels ackward at first but you get used to it.

For crosscutting I use old panel saws that I have restored. The problem with using a frame saw for crosscutting (at least for me) is that the brace in the middle seems to get in the way.

PM anytime. Be glad to help!

[harry strasil]

some mild confusion here. a bowsaw is not a turning saw, but a turnings saw is usually a bowsaw. A frame saw is even more confusing, its normally a rip saw with a blade in the center of the frame. but the bow on bowsaws can also be a frame.

Frame saws.




Bow Saws.



Turning saws.

[jonathan snyder]

That is quite a nice collection of saws Harry. Did you make them all?

Jonathan

[harry strasil]

yes I did, the blades are made by using old handled hand saws from flea mkts and such for a buck or two, that I sharpen and then cut them to the desired width with my plasma cutter. I have tried band saw blades and unless I spend a lot of time resharpening them and removing most of the wide set, they don't perform as I would like them too.

[Marcus Ward]

I built a frame saw with a band saw blade a few weeks ago and I'll second the recommendation to avoid them for handsaw use. They're too rough and too widely set to do the job properly, IMHO.

[Sam Yerardi]

Harry,

Those are beautiful! On the terminology, though, I have to respectfully disagree. You are absolutely right in the names for the various saws you have. It is one of those things where there are a lot of different names for the same thing and it gets confusing. When someone mentions bow saw, I first wonder what type of saw they're really talking about. Same with frame saw. The types you've made are what I usually think of first but the Danish call them as you see in the link below. Both are turning saws. Depending on who you're talking to, what resource you're reading, what country (German vs. British vs. Swedish, etc), the names are interchanged a lot. For example. The following links describe my saws almost exactly:

Frame Saw:
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...OD&ProdID=6047

Bow Saw:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3D10%26hl%3Den

[harry strasil]

Sorry, I have no idea about european saws, I only know what the american names are for them from old american technical manuals and WWing books.

[Robert Rozaieski]

For a turning saw, the blades that Joel sells at Tools for Working Wood are awsome! And they are very inexpensive too, I think about $7 for 2 blades of the same TPI or $11 for 3 blades (1 of each TPI). I modified the standard pins on an old 12" turning saw that I have to accept the blades Joel sells and it now works better than ever. I just had to hacksaw and file small slots into the brass pins in order to insert the blade pins that are used on Joel's blades. For what it's worth I use the 18 TPI and 10 TPI. I have not bought any 24 TPI as I've not done any marquetry or inlay yet but I bet the 24 TPI blades would be great for that.

If you want to make a turning saw, I highly recommend Joel's kit and blades. Or you could just buy his saw, or modify an old one like I did.

I will also agree about the band saw blades. They are not good for hand saw use. I built a frame saw for resawing with one and it was ok but not real easy to control. And the blades can't be sharpened so you have to make a new one every time it dulls. If you want a frame/bow saw to use for joinery cuts (i.e. wide blade, not a turning saw), I would suggest making the blade from an old damaged hand saw blade. This way you can resharpen it yourself very easily.