Kitchen Cabinet experts, share your wisdom

[Chris Yarish]

Well, after receiving quotes from places ranging from Ikea to Home Depot to Poggenphol, I can screw this job up A LOT before I incur the costs of having them done elsewhere.
What I lack in previous skill I can make up in other areas. I am very confident that this will look good and be done right. I just want to have a resource for myself and others like me who would rather hear what to do to avoid "x" or "y" rather than to do x or y. Screwing up is often unavoidable, unless someone can forewarn you.

Ikea (and I NEVER would have done Ikea) was going to be between $8000 and $10 000. Poggenpohl on the other hand was going to be $60 000 minimum.

[Chris Yarish]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete. Anything involving repeatability and scale, both of which you have with a kitchen, really introduce a lot of time drag.

Couple of points that were gotchas for me that I can share are;

1) Really think about your cutting / milling / machining workflow to reduce setup time. For example, mill and cut ALL your faceframe stock at the same time so you don't need to pay the setup cost multiple times. Same with router table setup for rails / stiles and panels. While it might not sound like a lot of time but it really adds up depending on how many times you have to do the changeover.
2) Build your boxes out of pre-finished ply. This I did do and I can't begin to imagine how much time and hassle it saved me.
3) Make sure you have a lot of room to store the boxes etc after you have them built. I stored mine in my living / dining room and those rooms were unusable for the project. It is surprisng how much room they take up.
4) The finishing process takes a lot of time and I don't see a way around that. It also take a lot of room so build yourself some drying racks.
5) Buy your drawers. I didn't do this and wish I had. Unless you are doing hand-cut dovetails, after you do one or two drawers there is really nothing interesting (IMHO) about doing drawers and they take a long time. The cost / benefit equation favors buying the boxes.
6) Whatever you think you are going to need in terms of "consumables" (sandpaper, glue, screws, etc) - double it.
7) As another poster advised - pocket hole screws. Nuff said there.
8) Don't do the tearout of your existing kitchen until you can absolutely go no further without doing it. The time between when you tear out your exsiting one and the new one going in is an absolutely miserable period. Don't believe it? Go home tonight and tell your sig-o that for the next two weeks you both have to do your dishes in the bathtub and the food from the drawers and pantry will be in random boxes scattered throughout the house. It won't be in one place because, remember, the new cabinets you built are where you would like to put that stuff.

All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336

I am a teacher so I will have time at Spring Break to gte some initial work started, then I will go full tilt throughout the summer.
My girlfriend and I live separately so no need to remodel the doghouse yet. Storage should be simple....single dude with a fairly big house....I offer to store other people's stuff because I'd like to give some of my rooms a purpose. No sweat there....I will also look into purchasing drawers. They were the one thing I did not look forward to taking on.

Your kitchen looks great....was it necessary to strip the kitchen to complete nakedness, or was that just a choice?

[Bob Antoniewicz]

Get a software program that lays out the cut-out diagram for cutting the panels. You'll save the cost of the program upon first use. It will also calculated the number of panels and amount of wood you need. It can do it faster and better than you can do it by hand. I use Cutlist plus. There are others.

Steve, do you have a recommendation?

Bob A.

[Chris Yarish]

Steve, do you have a recommendation?

Bob A.

I think he said that he uses Cutlist plus.

[Bob Antoniewicz]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete.
...
All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336

Dude, your kitchen rocks! ...uh, er... woods .... no no thats not it... uh ...

Oh, yeah!

Your kitchen COOKS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob Antoniewicz]

I think he said that he uses Cutlist plus.

Yes, of course. Attention deficit..

Thanks for pointing it out.

[Jim Marshall]

A lot of folks visit forums to learn how to do things and I am sure SMC is one of them. While you will get many different answers to one question, they mostly are great answers, as different folks have their own way to do things. I think this thread will be a great learning tool for some and a way for others to share their experiences with each other. I, for one, will be happy to help in any way I can. I sure don't know it all and even after a 37 year career, I am still learning. These young fellows are coming up with newer and sometimes better ways of doing some things, so I keep my eyes peeled and my mind open, we never know what we may learn.

The way I have done things over the years may not be the right way but I made a good living doing them.

[Greg Caputo]

Chris:

The current run of new episodes of New Yankee Workshop is all about building kitchen cabinets. I think it'll be nine episodes in total and they've already aired the first 5. I always find Norm's work easy to follow and helpful and this is no different. The first couple of episodes deal specifically with wood selection and carcass construction. Watch for them if your public TV station reruns NYW.

Couple other thoughts based on my experience of building upper and lower cabinets under the supervision of the general contractor who did our remodel:

--as mentioned already, a pocket hole jig makes the work strong and square.
--good quality sheet goods. My experience is that the material at the borg is normally not up to the job. Norm recommends pre-finished plywood.
--buiscuts are a big help to align the face frames.
--a computer program to help you figure out how much you need and how to break down the sheet goods. My experience with a program called Cutlist Plus is good and I use it for nearly every project requiring sheet goods. You can get this program on the internet. There are probably other programs, but this is the only one I've used.
--a good two-piece rail and stile router bit set for the doors. And a panel raising bit if you plan that look. There are a lot of brands from which to choose and the prices vary.
--make sure to leave enough room to scribe the edges of the cabinets which will go against a wall.
--i recessed the backs of my cabinets a little over 3/4" in order to use hidden french cleats to hang the uppers. Installation was neat, easy, and the attachment to the wall is strong. Once up, I drove screws through the back and into the cleat attached to the wall. Maybe it was overkill, but I used 3/4" plywood for the backs of the uppers for maximum strength and support.
--a jig to layout and make shelf holes is incredibly helpful. You can buy one or make your own.
--a jig to layout for the door hinges is helpful. This will obviously depend on what kind of hinge you plan to use and it's really easy to make your own.
--try to buy all the hardware before construction to make sure everthing will fit.
--current kitchen design seems to call for a lot drawers or pull-out shelves on lower cabinets. Seems like a good idea because it does away with the need to bend over or get down on your knees to find something in the back.

Have fun.

Greg

[Jim Becker]

Ikea (and I NEVER would have done Ikea) was going to be between $8000 and $10 000. Poggenpohl on the other hand was going to be $60 000 minimum.

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

[Darren Salyer]

Don't forget to leave a dead inch or two at inside corners so drawers will still open after handles are added without hitting the ones at right angles to them. Think ahead for dishwasher, oven and refrigerator handles that protrude past the plane of the cabinet faces. As a remodeler, I've seen this quite a few times. Just my .02.. Darren

[Larry Fox]

I am a teacher so I will have time at Spring Break to gte some initial work started, then I will go full tilt throughout the summer.

Nice, in that case you should be set on time. For me I needed to balance it with a job and family so it got rough at times.

My girlfriend and I live separately so no need to remodel the doghouse yet. Storage should be simple....single dude with a fairly big house....I offer to store other people's stuff because I'd like to give some of my rooms a purpose. No sweat there....

This is a very good thing, I really didn't account well for this when I built and it got to be a huge pain working around them.

I will also look into purchasing drawers. They were the one thing I did not look forward to taking on.

In my opinion, they are completely commoditized things and if you buy them it really saves you a lot of time and hassle. If memory serves, I beleive it took me about a month to take 17 drawers from rough stock to finished product and in the end they are just maple boxes without a top. These places where you buy them are setup to do it and can roll through them in no-time.

Your kitchen looks great....was it necessary to strip the kitchen to complete nakedness, or was that just a choice?

Thanks for the kind words. Not strictly necessary I suppose but doing so made some things very easy. I wanted to put some more lighting in and run wire for things like ethernet and TV cable for use in the future. I also installed low-voltage under-cabinet lighting and having it down to the studs made that easier. Another thing I could do at that point is to install the blocking between the studs at the same height as the mounting screws. That way, I could pre-drill the cabinets for monting and not have to fish around for a stud while someone was holding up the cabinet - you knew that whereever you drove a screw there was some meat back there to hold - made installation VERY easy. Not only that but the drywall in the other kitchen was crap anyway.

[Chris Yarish]

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

I have heard that the IKEA Akrum are a great buy....they use real wood (which is rare for Ikea) and Blum hingeware (which seem like an industry standard) but from what I have heard, the long term durability if the product just isn't there. I often recommend them to friends who can't DIY (or, DIT I guess....) because the alternatives are significantly more money. For someone looking to update their kitchen without having to remortgage, it's a fine alternative.
I hope that I can build a superior, custom made kitchen for a fraction of the cost...and knowing how confusing and time consuming Ikea's out-of-the-box assemblies can be, hopefully, I can do it in about the same amount of time

But yes, Ikea was the brand I was going to purchase when I was considering selling my house. I wanted a quick update with minimal costs and minimal energy output. They are good in many respects....just not for me and not for me in a house I'll be staying in.

[Chris Yarish]

Don't forget to leave a dead inch or two at inside corners so drawers will still open after handles are added without hitting the ones at right angles to them. Think ahead for dishwasher, oven and refrigerator handles that protrude past the plane of the cabinet faces. As a remodeler, I've seen this quite a few times. Just my .02.. Darren

This is funny....I refaced some cabinets in my old condo and being as retentive as I am, I wanted all of my door pulls (which were the long stainless steel bar-type) to be oriented in the same dirction....from the drawers to the doors. There was one corner where this was not possible and it was a pain to try to get into. I had to modify the handle in order to maintain the integrity of the balance I was trying to achieve. Would have been easier to have placed the handles vertically rather than horizontally....no one else would have cared, or noticed for that matter, but myself. I ended up having to repair the wall where the pull bounced off each time prior to the modification.
*sigh*

[Peter Quinn]

Jim Tolpins book Becoming a pro cabinet maker has good ideas for orgainzing work flow and production though a lot of the book is about starting a small business, still worth a browse.

If your goal is to do it all yourself, obviously you make everything. As others have said, you can do it and you will learn a lot. If the goal is to get a beautiful kitchen quick, you hire pros and watch it happen. In between there are a lot of options to consider. Depending on your goals, abilities and work space there are resonable options to outsource almost every aspect of production. You can get drawers made, doors made (conestoga) and prefinished with extra matching finish to do face frames, you can get frames made and finished too! You can often find a local finisher to spray the boxes you have made sparing you the headache and your family the toxins.

For framless or face frame Halls edge (hallsedge.com?) will CNC machine sheet goods for not much more than I can buy the plywood, comes on a palate like a kit, ready to build when you are. You can hire a certified pro planner to do the drawings and/or design work for or with you.

Try to design and build one entire box, even a miniature scale model to save materials, from begining to end, design to finish, make the carcasses, drawers, toe kick, door, end panel and finish it. This small commitment in resources will help you evaluate your skills and ilucidate which aspects of the whole job you want to tackle. It will also help overcome any fear/inertia you may have and serve as a training model from which to base your larger design.

Each thing you out source saves you time but costs you money. Most outsources offer very competitive pricing because they specilize in one thing and do it very efficiently. Don't feel bad outsourcing, small to medium pro shops do it all the time. Remember, the task is not insurmountable and you are not alone in it. Any outsourcing requires good and thourough design on your part, as outsourcers will make exactly what you order, and mistakes in sizes/layout on your part cannot be returned thus costing you twice.

[Jerry Kim]

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

What do you think of their self-closing slides?