Hide Glue hiding?

[David Martino]

Anyone know a good source/brand for hide glues? I wanted to give them a try after reading a few posts here and seeing the article in FWW 197. Steve Wargo mentions one made by Liberon I haven't been able to find:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844&page=3

Appreciate any thoughts or tips... how do you heat it, store it, open time, etc. Sounds like it has some plusses but requires a bit more "know-how." Thanks,

Dave

[Eddie Darby]

Lee Valley tools sell hide glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,110,42965

Some people have a hard time working with this glue, so I would recommend buying only a small quantity at the start.

[harry strasil]

I prefer the hide glue that comes in bottles in a liquid form, no smell easy to use and if I need more or less instant tack like some of the newer resin glues, I just heat it in my little double boiler glue pot, which makes it take quickly and dry faster.

[Joel Ficke]

Oldemill sells quite a few varieties. I use the 192 gram strength hide glue for most applications. If you need lots of open time, their fish glue works pretty well.

[Leif Hanson]

I don't know about where to get Liberon brand - I think that woodfinishupply.com may sell it... but I don't have experience with that company. There are several sources of good quality granular hide glue, though...

Behlen's is good glue - it's 256 gram strength, so it's open time is a little less than 192 gram strength glue. It's available at Stewart McDonald, Woodcraft and The Best Things. 192 gram stength is more general purpose, 256 is stronger for general casework, and is better for rub-joints and the like.

A good range of hide glues is available at toolsforworkingwood.com - this is where I would recommend you get yours at... I don't have any experience with oldemill.com but it looks like they have a good selection.

I think a large majority of granular hide glues in the US come from the same supplier...

Edit - there is a Liberon "Pearl" glue available at WoodCraft - it's a form of hide glue...

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5526

[Stephen Jackson]

Harry, that's a neat little glue-pot. Are they available as is, or have you adapted something else?

[harry strasil]

my first wife found it in an antique mall for I think a couple of bucks

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I spent some months studying hide glues in comparison to other glues.

What I concluded was that it's really not that great a glue. It is OK for laminating a veneer (because it gels fast and doesn't wet through) or the fret-board of a guitar (because it can be released with reasonably little heat). It is also nice for production setting of reinforcing glue blocks where you want the thing to take the glue to gell and adhere fast letting yo move on to the next piece.

However, it is not so strong as Titebond nor as reliable by far as Titebond. Moisture ruins it after set up & cure, temperature at time of application matters a lot, and the mix is finicky producing unreliable results.

Later on during another of my "perfect" glue quests I almost became a Resourcinol fan but for, a well written test & report that compared it to Titebond and the Resourcinol wasn't as strong by a wide measure. My own work wit the stuff proves it to be a royal PITA to work with needing very high clamping pressures and won't set up bellow 70Deg F. It does however have good gap filling properties and mixes with wood flour very well.


Epoxy is probably better than Titebond (even III) in a lot of wet applications and especially those where you need strong gap filling, Resourcinol is best if your joints are going to be heated such as in a dark painted or dark wood ships mast in the tropics where the sun's heat will build up, or a hot plate that will hold hot vessels for extended periods.


However, for conventional furniture I'd rely on Titebond or a good industrial PVA. Less muss less fuss and very reliable.

[michael osadchuk]

Anyone know a good source/brand for hide glues? I wanted to give them a try after reading a few posts here and seeing the article in FWW 197. Steve Wargo mentions one made by Liberon I haven't been able to find:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844&page=3

Appreciate any thoughts or tips... how do you heat it, store it, open time, etc. Sounds like it has some plusses but requires a bit more "know-how." Thanks,

Dave

Check out this thread with Bob Smalser, focussing on reversability of hide glue joints.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ht=repair+glue

I used some raw hide glue for the first time a few months ago to add some long wood trim strips to solid wood and plywood edges on a bed project. Some of the 1" wide trim strips were quite long - 5-6 feet and I was concerned the glue would cool/jell too quickly to allow mating of the surfaces but it wasn't a problem. I very much like the characteristic that the dried glue won't stain a finish and excess/squeezed out glue flakes away very easily from a finish when dried.

I will use it again

good luck

michael

[Leif Hanson]

Here's some reading...

http://www.player-care.com/hide_q-a.html

http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luth.../hideglue.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.org/2005/hideglue.shtml

http://www.windsorchairresources.com/tips/tipglue.html

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec...ds_11108.shtml

[Bob Smalser]

Hide glue works best on joints that will eventually require repair. Like chair joints and round tenon joints that fail every 30 years or so. It's easily renewed with heat and more glue.

Glue strength is meaningless as all of them are stronger than the wood they glue.

Otherwise why not try UF Plastic Resin Glue like Weldwood or Dap. Easier to use than hide glue, long open time, zero creep, and best of all a clean, easily-sanded glue line. I have 20 or so pieces of heirloom furniture in my house dating from the 1960's assembled with UF resin and haven't has a failure or creep yet. But any of those crossgrain glue joints could eventually fail from seasonal movement and UF resin joints can be broken apart and reglued, just not as easy as hide glue.

Titebond and other PVA's are a disaster in heirloom furniture, and their use limited to short-lived items like kitchen cabinets. If the joint ever breaks it can't be repaired because unlike other glues, nothing useful sticks to Titebond residue. PVA's creep under load and PVA squeezeout blotches staining attempts so badly you should finish the piece before assembly. You won't have any of those problems with either hide glue or UF resin. Resorcinol is for boats to be painted, not furniture, as it has the ugliest glue line of them all.

Last, if you have gaps to fill you should use epoxy with a high-adhesive thickener like cabosil. Aerodux and Aerolite are resorcinol and UF resin glues made in the UK that fill gaps, but no US-made resorcinol or UF resins does that well by mixing it with wood flour. Especially if you are concerned about strength. With all glues, follow the manufacturer's instructions or you are setting yourself up for a fall.

[Tony Zaffuto]

You've said it best Bob: there's more to glue than just sticking! I've tested the waters with pre-mixed hide glue last year and several months ago I set up a hot pot and bought the raw hide glue from Tools for Working Wood.

Glue is not an excuse for sloppy joints. I would personally try some pre-mix hide glue first--I never tried titebond, but I did use Patrick's Old Brown glue (also from TFWW). See how you like it but remember to concentrate on your fit and where you can test the fit before glue up.

T.Z.

[Steve Schoene]

By the way, you don't need to go searching the antique malls or paying over $100 for a glue pot. A "crock-pot" slow cooker does the job just fine. Mix your glue in a glass jar, set it in a water bath in the crock pot to heat. When you are done the jar can be capped and go in the fridge to extend it's life.

[Sam Yerardi]

Also, I've seen people use a baby bottle warmer. Much cheaper than the $100 pots. Myself, every morning when I warm up the shop I put a bowl of water on the heater and use that to warm my glue. Works like a champ.

I agree 100% with Bob Smalzer. There's more to glue than just being something indestructable. If antiques were assembled with epoxy, etc. eventually there would be no more antiques because we would destroy them in the process of trying to repair them. Hide glue is tops on my list for what it is meant for. Other glues have their applications as well.

[Leif Hanson]

By the way, you don't need to go searching the antique malls or paying over $100 for a glue pot. A "crock-pot" slow cooker does the job just fine. Mix your glue in a glass jar, set it in a water bath in the crock pot to heat. When you are done the jar can be capped and go in the fridge to extend it's life.

Yup... I use an old Rival Hot Pot Express, which can be bought new for about $12 - or I've found one in a thrift store for $1:



http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/106

The only critical requirement is it be able to heat water to 145 degrees and hold it at that temp - so it's best if it has a dial to adjust the temp...

Leif