Asian Saws - Durability

[Mike Gabbay]

I'm starting to look at cabinet saws for my home shop. So far I'm looking at both new and used. For used, my top choices are a PM66 or a General 650 (very hard to find used). For new my top choices are the Jet Deluxe, PM2000, or Laguna Platinum.

After reading reviews about the newer saws it seems that the Asian made saws actually have some very good specs with regard to initial tolerences for runout, alignment, and table flatness.

My concerns with going with an Asian saw is mostly around the motor and possibly the long term condition of the cast iron.

Without getting into the "US made is better" debate, I'd like to hear people's experience with Asian motors over the long haul or ones that have been used on a more production setting.

Thanks!

[Pat Germain]

I don't think you'll have any problems with Asian motors. Unless you buy a European machine, or buy a motor separately, you're likely going to get an Asian motor on any new machine because just about everything is made in Asia these days.

So, don't sweat where the machine or the motor comes from. If you go with any well-known brand, be it Jet, Grizzly, PM, or whatever, you'll be OK.

[Simon Dupay]

In my experience Asian made saw are terrible for a production setting ,at work we used to have a 12" grizzly that would almost dance around and shut off in the middle of a cut, on our 2ed sawstop in less then 2 years and our Unisaw never has had any problems. find a used U.S cabinet saw you'll never have to replace it.
Asian motor are overrated in terms of power, a euro or us. motor of the same horse power rating is more powerful (how they rate them is different)

[Scott Seigmund]

Mike,

If you are buying new, you should give serious consideration to the PM66 and the General (CA) 350/650. As I’ve said elsewhere, the General (CA) saw is the most underrated saw on the market. The quality, fit and finish of these Canadian manufactured machines is (IMO) the absolute best available. My (close) second choice for a new saw would be the PM 66. The PM66 is pretty much the benchmark for cabinet saws, with probably the best track record of any saw for toughness and durability. They are still mostly made in the U.S. although the castings are outsourced (not offshored) as PM closed its McMinnville foundry a few years ago. Both the PM and General (CA) use Meehanite iron castings, and generally suffer far less with warping than imports. If you ever have a chance to drill and tap both Asian iron castings and Meehanite iron you will understand that there IS a difference in hardness and toughness. I don’t know what goes into the Asian castings, but they are quite soft by comparison.

Asian motors? Don’t get me started. If a North American saw cost $500 more than an import, then most of that difference is due to the Baldor or Lesson motor, with the balance going for a quality magnetic starter, and it will be worth every dollar in the long run. Maybe the Asian stuff is serviceable for hobby applications (no offence intended to anyone) but not for a money-maker.

Consider hanging on for a good used PM66. It’s possible to find good (not abused) examples for about $1000. New arbor assemblies are less than $100, and easy to change out should the bearings be rough. A used PM66 will probably come with a very expensive Square-D or Telemecanique magnetic starter that will actually protect the motor. Great castings, great motors, great electrics for about the same money as shiny new import. You won’t have to replace it a few years down the road either.

Scott

[David DeCristoforo]

" Both the PM and General (CA) use Meehanite iron castings..."

Interesting that General makes this claim in their literature whereas PM which is now owned by the same company that owns "Jet" does not. Also interesting is the statement by General that their motors are American "designed", not made.

YM

[Dan Owen]

I have to agree with Scott. The General 350/650 is the most underrated saw out there. The fit and precision of these saws is spectacular. I'm in the process of selling my 25 year old unisaw and getting a General 350. I've drooled over these saws for too long and now I just have to have one before the prices get any higher. The motor is a North American Baldor. I have a General 130 planer and it has the Baldor motor. That is one planer I'll never have to replace.

[Scott Seigmund]

Yoshikuni,

I should clarify that the model 66 table saw is the last Powermatic machine made in America, and it still has most of the desirable qualities of the older PM66s, except maybe the plastic motor cover. I don’t know what make of magnetic starter the new saw come with either. I think the “designed” language for the General CA machines is merely semantics. I have never seen one that did not have a Baldor or Lesson motor, and I’m certain that these companies still manufacture in the U.S.

Scott

[Bob Hallowell]

I am just a hobbiest and my saw is new, But I have a steel city deluxe and saw some without the tables on with the massive cast iron trunoins. I told my wife my great grandkids can will be abe to use this saw ( I am only 35) it is built like a tank. As for the motor quality I could not say but if I look at the quality of the rest of the saw with it's dead flat tables and needing no adjustment at all I would say the motor is probaly decent too.

Bob

[scott spencer]

In my experience Asian made saw are terrible for a production setting ,at work we used to have a 12" grizzly that would almost dance around and shut off in the middle of a cut, on our 2ed sawstop in less then 2 years and our Unisaw never has had any problems. find a used U.S cabinet saw you'll never have to replace it.
Asian motor are overrated in terms of power, a euro or us. motor of the same horse power rating is more powerful (how they rate them is different)

I can't offer any useful comments about which is better...I like to think that US made goods are higher quality and tend to choose them when it's a viable option (like saw blades and router bits). Regardless, it sounds like something was out of adjustment or specifically wrong with that Grizzly saw...likely setup issues or an isolated part, and is really a separate concern from the quality of castings or motors, so I wouldn't consider that machine as a valid representation of the whole population of Asian saws. It's worth noting that much of the Delta is now made from imported parts.

[David Wittner]

Yoshikuni,

I should clarify that the model 66 table saw is the last Powermatic machine made in America, and it still has most of the desirable qualities of the older PM66s, except maybe the plastic motor cover. I don’t know what make of magnetic starter the new saw come with either. I think the “designed” language for the General CA machines is merely semantics. I have never seen one that did not have a Baldor or Lesson motor, and I’m certain that these companies still manufacture in the U.S.

Scott

You are correct, this is semantics, but a style that usually distracts the reader from the place of manufacture. It's very much like "assembled in the US" which usually means that the parts were mfg'd abroad. Baldor does mfg motors in the US, but they also do so in England, Mexico, and China (same goes for motor components). Can't comment on Leeson. As the original message said, I'm not trying to jump into the US versus foreign debate, but to find a machine or part that is created from a single point of origin is pretty tough.

DGW

[Mike Gabbay]

I 100% agree that the General is my saw of choice. The problem is the US dollar in Canada pretty much sucks and it is costing a lot more ($3,000). Finding a used General in the US is pretty hard to come by.

The PM66's when reveiwed by FWW did not get that great of a review with runout and alignment. This leads me to believe that the newer ones just aren't as good as the older ones.

Either way, I'll keep my eye out for a used General or PM66. I'm going to look at the Laguna later this month at the WW show.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Dan Owen]

Mike,

The General 350/650 table saws are currently being promoted at $2649.00 which includes fence, extension table and legs. I found a local dealer who is selling right tilts (350) at $2499.00. Woodsmith has them listed at 2399.99, but that would not include shipping, Anyway, I think if you do a little looking around, you will find what your looking for at the right price.

Dan

[David DeCristoforo]

"You are correct, this is semantics, but a style that usually distracts the reader from the place of manufacture..."

It may well be as you say. But this is the kind of thing that confuses people (at least it confuses me). If something is made in the US, it should be so stated, And if it's made in the US but includes parts or components made elsewhere, that should also be stated clearly. Quoted from the first page of Baldor's web site:
"These products are produced at 26 plants in the US, Canada, England, Mexico and China."
So who knows for sure where these things come from?

In the end, I think you have to look at the overall "track record" of the various manufacturers, keeping in mind that acquisitions like that of Powermatic by WMH may radically alter the equation.

YM

[Brian Kent]

I have only had my Grizzly for 2 years, so I have no criteria on long range durability.

But I did not buy it as a compromise or a lesser saw. The table is dead flat and the trunnions massive. I bought it because, of the list of excellent saws, this was the best price.

It's not the country, it's the quality control.

[Scott Seigmund]

".... If something is made in the US, it should be so stated, And if it's made in the US but includes parts or components made elsewhere, that should also be stated clearly.....

In the end, I think you have to look at the overall "track record" of the various manufacturers, keeping in mind that accusations like that of Powermatic by WMH may radically alter the equation.

YM

Yoshikuni, I wholeheartedly agree!

Hopefully Powermatic will be smart enough to differentiate itself through better quality, and not follow the route that others have of an ever cheaper product. I think Delta is already suffering some hits to its reputation as they are sourcing products from several countries, and quality has become questionable. It confuses customers, for example, to see a 14 inch bandsaw for $399 at Lowe’s and another one for $900 somewhere else. The cheap one is made in China, and quality s**ks. The more expensive one is made in Taiwan, and is better, but not as good as a machine produced in America in 1949. As for some of the other “brands,” I will never get over my poor experience with their early stuff to give them another try. Lessons learned.

Mike mentioned the U.S. vs. Canadian exchange rate driving up the price of General CA machines, and this is certainly true. The exchange rate is near parity now, but in the past was 40 to 50% more favorable to U.S. customers. If the Asian currencies are allowed to float, I would expect we see a dramatic increase in the price of woodworking machinery (and a lot of other stuff). The fact that these currencies are pegged artificially low has damaged our North American manufactures (not to mention our trade deficit). So this begs the question; given artificial pricing advantage via unfair currency policy, are Asian tools really a bargain? This makes it extremely difficult to draw fair comparisons to the remaining North American manufactured machines. Keep in mind that the guys building General CA and the PM66 can afford to send their kids to college if they so choose and they can live in clean safe communities with decent air and water quality.

-Scott