Hand Plane User in the Buffalo Area

[Matthew Poeller]

Is there a person in the Buffalo, NY area that knows how to use and adjust hand planes, maybe has some nice ones that I could try and is willing to teach me some weekend?

I have fettled with hand planes to no avail some time and I am about ready to learn the right way before I give up entirely.

[Stu Gillard]

Flick me a PM if you're ever in Canberra, Australia

[John Dykes]

Matthew -

I remember you posting some time ago... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=735925

I am about ready to learn the right way before I give up entirely.

Sadly, this is the decision I made some years ago, and the regret of those lost years is still with me. I encourage you to keep trying... I am the least skilled of those who frequent this board, but am willing to help in any way I can. Let's say - I've been there...

David Charlesworth videos were priceless to me - as was this board, and the many books I've purchased. I don't know what you might be struggling with, but I'm sure there is a way to get through it. Feel free to post on each step that you are unsure of.

Simply stated the miracle of technology has proved to be a boon to this apprentice, and you should take advantage of the same. To that end, there are several routes available to us -

1) Post a list (or pictures) of planes you've got.
2) We'll pick one and you can ship it to me.
3) I'll video the process of cleaning, tuning, and sharpening it.
4) I'll video how to use it.
5) I'll ship the plane, DVD, and wispy shavings back to you.

I don't know if I have any klunkers right now, but I can do just the video portion on one of my planes. Or I can buy one off ebay, perform the steps above - and ship it to you (at the ebay cost).

It would be tragic for one with a desire to learn - "gives up entirely." Again, you won't learn much from one of my skill level, but I might be able to help you over the "hill before the slippery slope..." The slope is easy - once you find it!

Let me know,

- Dykes

[Dan Racette]

Have you checked out the Mario Rodriguez video as well? I like David's videos very very much. But I also thought that Mario's videos were good too.

Dan

[John Dykes]

I have not, but thank you for the suggestion... To be honest, I've found DVDs to be my primary source of instruction (with books supplementing)- Tom Law, Frank Klaus, Chris Schwartz, Charlesworth... I've got the Kingshott 4 DVD set on the way too. Mario's are now added to the list...

Thanks again,
-jbd

[Eric Parham]

Hey Matthew, don't give up so easy. It really is not as hard as it seems to tune and use planes. What kind of planes do you have? Do you have any books about hand planes? Garrett Hack's book is excellent. I would be happy to help you out but I am all the way out in mass. John has some great ideas take him up on them.

-eric

[Matthew Poeller]

But I give up.....JUST KIDDING. This is something that I really want to learn. Especially since my wife is going to start working 3rd shift again shortly and hand tools are quieter than power tools and my shop is in the basement.

So anyway, it took me so long to post back because I was on a mission when I got home from work today.

I was not about to take John up on your EXTREMELY generous offer (the reason this sight is so amazing is people like you) without doing my due diligence. That last thing I wanted to do was send you a plane on to have you say that the fix was SO simple and I am an idiot.

So I got home, re-flattened the sole, frog, cleaned up the chip breaker again and sharpened the blade again.

Then I reset the frog, and reset the break on the iron.

[Matthew Poeller]

Made sure that the cap lever was not too tight and put the plane back together complete.

Then I started in.....

Now I have much better results today than I did last night. I cannot see any gouges in the boards, the boards are nice and flat (this was a glue-up that kinda went bad) and everything seems to be allright.

Now I am still not 100% that I am doing this right but I am hoping that from the pics you might be able to spot something that I am doing wrong.

The major changes made from last night (could any of these really made a huge difference?):

The cap lever is much looser now. I did not tight it up very much at all, just enough to hold it all together. (Does this really make a huge difference? It seemed to make the blade much easier to adjust)
I sharpened the blade again, but I contend that it was basically just as sharp before.
Flattening the sole again, I think this might of been some of the problem since it did need some work. I ended up starting at 180, going down to 120 and then back up again.

Things I am still not sure about:

My slices are paper thin but I cannot seem to get a slice the whole length of the board, is this normal?
I am not using the whole blade as you can tell from the width of the slice in my fingers. When I adjusting I was hitting the left side, then the right and then in the middle but still not utilizing the whole blade.
I am worried that I am missing somthing that is intuitive to someone that uses these all the time but I might have inadvertently screwed up when I took it apart the first time (like make the cap lever too tight).
In addition to that I was wondering about the depth adjustment wheel. Mine seems to have a lot of slop in it. Is this normal?

I will post some more pics of the rest of the planes in my arsenal (not worked on at all) a little later.

JOHN, I think that I may take you up on your offer but after seeing this what do you think would be best? For me to ship you this plane or for me to take some pictures of my others for you to pick one? Or have I finally caught on a little bit and not I just need to get videos.

I have the hand plane book by garret but I seem to be missing something and find the video that I have seen on the web from places like Hock and such to be much more informative.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Mathew you never told us how long you have been working with hand planes. They do have a learning curve. It took me almost a year before I figured everything out, and I am still earning new things every day. The problem with me is I am a very visual earner, so books and written instructions do little for me. Pictures and video are better, the best is if I can see someone do something. There are very few people in my neck of the woods who are inflicted with the neander bug, which delayed my learning curve even further. My other problem is I never take anyones opinion on face value, I challenge every established notion (width of the mouth, utility of the chip breaker, flatness of the sole etc.)
If I figure things out on my own I never forget them and I truly develop a deeper understanding.

Were we talking about you at some point

What I am trying to say is stick with what ever learning method works for you. The most important aspect of handtools I can tell you is that you must enjoy the process not the result. If you enjoy using a handplane (or a saw or chisel), irrespective of the quality of the shavings or the surface, you will continue to learn and stay engaged. If you become results oriented there is a possibility you might get frustrated and give up. There is enough wisdom out there to teach you how handplanes work, and you will eventually findout all there is to know. So I will not offer any technical advice, just that you have to enjoy the ride.

Check you local library for woodworking books. David Fink's book "making and mastering wood planes" has a very nice section on tuning a block plane. The principles apply to all hand planes. Garrett Hack's book is considered The book for handplanes.

[John Dykes]

I'm glad you posted those pictures and your efforts thus far - and in the detail that you did...

Firstly, that looks to be a 60's vintage Stanley Handyman (my assumption). My father just recently sent me one that he bought at Ft. Campbell, KY. Besides my father's plane, I have very limited familiarity with the Handyman (or that era of planes).

Forgive me for being blunt, but I think it's important - (I don't want to berate your purchase or tool) - it's commonly stated that this type of plane is of very (very) low quality. The difference between my father's #4 Handyman and a pre-WW2 #4 is considerable (in my single experience). Others here might be able to give you a more qualified and educated answer about this. I haven't even tried to work on my father's plane - and don't expect to. The frog seems like it's made out of tin foil compared to my others!

Point being, is your Handyman worth restoring and trying to make work? I honestly, do not know. Again, others will have to help here... I've seen the discussion go both ways. I have not restored a Handyman - I don't know the effort involved.

I can tell you this - your effort that you put into this already, would have already yielded great results on a earlier vintage plane. It would be interesting to see if you have any other ones to work on?? Take pictures of them all perhaps?

How flat is the sole? Use a marker on the bottom, and run it across the sandpaper (or whatever). Do the marker lines wear away evenly?

Flattened the frog. Looks ok to me I guess - (again, not a plane I've used). What about the frog mating surfaces (where it meets the body)?

Chipbreaker and blade matching up is probably alright for now. Front of blade looks fine; is the back of the blade flat and polished?

The lever cap should be - eh, fingertight to clamp up and down. Loose doesn't sound good to me... You don't want the blade sliding around in there.

To be blunt again, those shavings don't look too good to me. Make sure the opening of the mouth is, eh, 1/16th or so, don't project the blade too far...

It's late tonight, but I think Comcast gives me some webspace - I'll try to get a video up on it tomorrow. Things to look at, how to set up for a shaving, taking a nice shaving. Never tried making a video web page, but I should be able to get something together - even if it's pictures.

Really interested to see other planes you might have. The Handyman might be a tougher battle than some old rusty one you might have...

You will take a nice shaving....

- jbd von Denver

* Edit - in reviewing if I answered any of your questions...
- I'd keep the lever cap tight. Again, you don't want the blade sloshing around.
- My planes have "slop" in the blade adjustment.
- No, I honestly don't think you're doing anything fundamentally wrong... Point being, I don't know if I could get that plane working either. I'll work on my Dad's #4 this weekend and see. It doesn't have the original blade though....
- Are you sure the blade is sharp? Not "cut you sharp," but "shave" sharp. Not "scratch a few arm hairs off" sharp, but hairs glide off sharp.
- Next step - see if you have an old Stanley... if not, we can keep trying on this one (or perhaps what other folks might think is best). Or we can work through an ebay purchase. Or, hell for that matter, I can loan you one.

Yes, I take this personal. I gave up once...

You will take a damn shaving.

[Matthew Poeller]

Nahid et al, thank you very much. I am surely not going to give up. I know that I will be able to get this sooner or later. I do not give up so easily, I just say that I will out of frustration.

John,
I was wondering about the 'ol Stanley. It looked, at first glance to be in the best shape but I think that you are right. This one might not be worth it. I noticed some things last night that I thought were odd. The sole where the frog meets is painted. The entire frog was painted before I started to flatten. The bottom of the frog where it meets the sole is painted and I cannot do any real work on that.

I will tonight take some pics of the other planes that I have (definitely all in disrepair) and we will go from there.

Definitely do not think that you are being harsh. I personally think that blunt truth is the best way to get anything done. Who needs yes men anyway?

To answer a few of your questions though.
The lever cap was not loose enough for the blade to move when planing but I loosened it to the point that it did not take a lot of force to lock it down.
I will check the blade on my arm tonight. I sharpen with japanese waterstones to 8000. I flatten the back using Mr. Hock's method of setting in on a rulers and running it against the sandpaper.

I will say this. I was not completely satisfied with the plane operation but the results were nice. The boards are a glue up that was a little off. After the work with the plane they flat enough that I cannot see any glue lines. Something that would have taken good bit of time with sandpaper. With that being said, I am all in if it just gets better!!

Stay tuned tonight. I have a little bit of work to do on my house so that I can stay on schedule (read, keep the wife happy) but then I will be back to the planes.

[Steve Wargo]

Just a few hours away in Cleveland.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

I don't know if I have any klunkers right now, but I can do just the video portion on one of my planes.

Do the video and then post it on YouTube and post back with the link.

[dan grant]

you can purchase a replacement blade (hock etc.) and at least you would have a point to start from or a level to get to which ever way you want to look at it, good luck and have fun sounds like your addicted there is no help for you now dan

[Matthew Poeller]

John,

First off, I hope you had a nice time skiing with the fam.

So let me tell you. I took your sharpening comment to heart and vowed today that I would follow your steps and make sure that I had a blade worth putting in the plane. Of course you were not being coarse, just helpful in my opinion.

Started to flatten the back with 120 paper (since it was my opinion that if i had to go to 4000 it needed more help), then 220 and the onto the diamond stone. I actually took it one step further and went to the 800 stone because I can see what that does to the blade better. The back was completely flat. The I put that "already sharp" blade back into the jig at 25*. I took it all the way down so there was no secondary bevel. I wanted to start completly fresh. Then I went to 32.5* (what my jig allows). I actually did that one on the 1200 stone just for giggles. Then I dialed it up to 35* and got on the 4000 stone. 10 (probably 20) gingerly passes and then out of the jig to do the back with the ruler technique on the 4000 stone. Check on the forearm, very few hairs left. All the while keeping my safety glass and compound close to flatten the stones about every 5 or ten minutes or when I thought I saw excessive wear. Then into the plane.

Outstanding. 1000 times better than last night. Check out the PICS!!

Now I am not sure if this is up to par completely but I have to tell you that it is crazy what this thing can do. I flattened my cherry board and then the other side that I buggered up last night with the unsharpened blade. Perfectly smooth, perfectly flat.

What do you thing?

Some other questions:
How far do you go on the secondary bevel? I probably went to about .032". I imagine that over time honing you will have to put another secondary bevel on.
Do you start from the primary bevel everytime you sharpen or the secondary bevel, or just hone?
Do you flatten the back everytime you hone?
How often do you hone?

If this is considered a mediocre plane by neander standards I shudder to think what a good plane like a Clifton, Lie Nielson or Veritas could do.

If I used this sharpening technique on my chisels they would be even more dangerous than they already are.

One other newbie observation:
When purchasing a plane, factor in the cost of a new blade when buying as you may not have the time or the patience to take care of the blade, all told I probably spent 6 hours on the blade between the last time that I "sharpened" it and today.
While I am sure Garret's book is a great handplane book is does not touch on the subject of sharpening all that well, or at least not what I had read since that is where I got the 25 degree primary and 27.5 degree secondary that obviously did not work very well.
FLATTEN THE BACK, JUST DO IT AS JOHN SAYS. I seriously believe that was my biggest error.
While the 4000 stone is pretty good I will also purchase the 8000 stone. I believe that will make an even bigger difference.

Joe,

I to have a borg stanley low angle block plane (I did not disclose this on purpose since I believe in reading they work differently and can work semi well while not properly sharpened because of the low angle) that works pretty well, or so I thought. It works for what I have asked it to do which is not much up until now. I now know that needs to be sharpened properly. It is no where near as sharp as it needs to be to perform properly.