Rebuilding pole building into shop

[Dave Lessley]

Hi All,

I'm new to the site and have just started poking around.

I'm just beginning the process of talking to contractors to rebuild my existing pole building into a dedicated woodshop. The building was home built 30 years ago by the fellow that originally settled the property.

The posts were not treated and are starting to rot from splash due to no gutters.

It has a great existing monolithic slab with the floor portion 6 inches thick. The current thought by all current contributors has been to take down the existing building and stick build a new building using the existing slab.

The demensions are 24 feet by 30 feet and I want to go with a 10 foot ceiling. It will have R21 in the walls, R30 in the ceilings, dual pane argon filled windows, 8 foot wide by 9 foot tall roll up door with I think an R6.7 rating.

I have a 200 amp electrical service at the building.
I want to add a toilet and sink.
My idea is to run windows up high to gain wall space and avoid direct southern light.

My biggest question for planning and expense right now is heat.

I would like to go with hydronic radiant heat in the floor. Which means I will need to put down an insulating barrier then the tubing and pour a I'm told 2 inch layer of concrete over the top.

My only other source would be electricity. Most likely a heat pump. Which would give me AC in the summer. My concern with forced air is it becoming a very efficient air filtration unit. I'm not sure if that is good or bad and How I would handle the filters and at what sort of a maintenance cost.

At this point other than the size 24'x30' I am not committed to anything.

Is 2 inches of concrete over an existing slab going to be sufficient for vibrating machinery? Is there an inexpensive way to filter dust from a forced air system?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks,

[Eric Haycraft]

Hi All,

I'm new to the site and have just started poking around.

I'm just beginning the process of talking to contractors to rebuild my existing pole building into a dedicated woodshop. The building was home built 30 years ago by the fellow that originally settled the property.

The posts were not treated and are starting to rot from splash due to no gutters.

It has a great existing monolithic slab with the floor portion 6 inches thick. The current thought by all current contributors has been to take down the existing building and stick build a new building using the existing slab.

The demensions are 24 feet by 30 feet and I want to go with a 10 foot ceiling. It will have R21 in the walls, R30 in the ceilings, dual pane argon filled windows, 8 foot wide by 9 foot tall roll up door with I think an R6.7 rating.

I have a 200 amp electrical service at the building.
I want to add a toilet and sink.
My idea is to run windows up high to gain wall space and avoid direct southern light.

My biggest question for planning and expense right now is heat.

I would like to go with hydronic radiant heat in the floor. Which means I will need to put down an insulating barrier then the tubing and pour a I'm told 2 inch layer of concrete over the top.

My only other source would be electricity. Most likely a heat pump. Which would give me AC in the summer. My concern with forced air is it becoming a very efficient air filtration unit. I'm not sure if that is good or bad and How I would handle the filters and at what sort of a maintenance cost.

At this point other than the size 24'x30' I am not committed to anything.

Is 2 inches of concrete over an existing slab going to be sufficient for vibrating machinery? Is there an inexpensive way to filter dust from a forced air system?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks,

First suggestion... Spray foam insulation. It costs more, but it will pay for itself in the long run and with how energy costs are rising, sooner.

I know that many people love radiant floor heating, but it isn't for everyone. One thing to consider is that with radiant you need to keep the shop at a fairly constant temp. A forced air system can bring a shop up to temp in an hour or so while it would take hours for a radiant system. Also, you limit yourself with radiant because you can't drill or cut into the floor for say running electrical, ductwork, bolting machines down, etc in the future.

Regarding forced air, I would think that it would be just fine, but I would have them build a double height filter box when it is installed and use both a pair of media filters and a pair of cheaper pre-filters. The media ones will get the fine dust out of the air and the pre-filters keep you from having to replace the media filters constantly since they are costly. You would probably need two due to the extra resistance of dual filters, but the installer would be able to tell you if that is overkill or not.

A cheaper option is perhaps to just use a wood stove in there. Depending upon the amount of scrap and the average temp outside it may be a good option.

[Chris Padilla]

Hi All,

I'm new to the site and have just started poking around.

I'm just beginning the process of talking to contractors to rebuild my existing pole building into a dedicated woodshop. The building was home built 30 years ago by the fellow that originally settled the property.

The posts were not treated and are starting to rot from splash due to no gutters.

It has a great existing monolithic slab with the floor portion 6 inches thick. The current thought by all current contributors has been to take down the existing building and stick build a new building using the existing slab.

The demensions are 24 feet by 30 feet and I want to go with a 10 foot ceiling. It will have R21 in the walls, R30 in the ceilings, dual pane argon filled windows, 8 foot wide by 9 foot tall roll up door with I think an R6.7 rating.

I have a 200 amp electrical service at the building.
I want to add a toilet and sink.
My idea is to run windows up high to gain wall space and avoid direct southern light.

My biggest question for planning and expense right now is heat.

I would like to go with hydronic radiant heat in the floor. Which means I will need to put down an insulating barrier then the tubing and pour a I'm told 2 inch layer of concrete over the top.

My only other source would be electricity. Most likely a heat pump. Which would give me AC in the summer. My concern with forced air is it becoming a very efficient air filtration unit. I'm not sure if that is good or bad and How I would handle the filters and at what sort of a maintenance cost.

At this point other than the size 24'x30' I am not committed to anything.

Is 2 inches of concrete over an existing slab going to be sufficient for vibrating machinery? Is there an inexpensive way to filter dust from a forced air system?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks,

Hi Dave! Welcome to the Creek! I hope you post LOTTSA PICS of this transformation because it would be too cool to follow along with you on this endeavour!

Sounds like you have a good solid foundation to build a new shop on! After 30 years, it has fully cured and moved and cracked all it ever will, I think.

As Eric said, look seriously into expanding spray foam insulation (either closed or open cell). It seals much better and has a much better R-value over fiberglass or anything else for that matter. It also helps with sound (if that matters to you). *click here* and go the end of that thread to see my recent spray foam install.

You are SET for electricity!

For the toilet and sink, it sounds like you will need to cut the slab to put in drain lines and copper. Are you on a well or septic system? Public sewer/utilities? These will take up space but I agree are nice to haves.

Windows sound good. Maybe look into those ones that have venetion blinds stuffed between the glass. It will help you regulate the amount of natural light entering the building.

Radiant is the schlitz for sure but I don't know much about it. If they say 2" then I guess it should be 2". I hate the forced air in my house and I will go radiant in a future house I build. http://www.warmfloor.com/ is another alternative for you. You may wish to put a wood floor over that concrete...will be nicer on your legs over time.

Have you considered solar electricity or solar water heating as well?

Do you need a separate/clean finishing room?

Good Luck and please take us along the ride with you with PLENTY O' PICS!!!!

[Joe Chritz]

Spray urethane insulation, 1 mild insulated 8 foot garage door, 10 foot ceilings and one wall with minimal R13 fiberglass and an attached storage (now finish room). Same overall size as yours and I heat it with a 45K BTU hanging furnace or a small (Volgazang) wood stove. With the stove burning the furnace never kicks on.

Stays at 55-60 all the time and I haven't used 100 gallons of propane yet this winter. I have been out there a lot so more wood heat equals less propane usage.

In floor heat is the bomb no doubt but I personally would go with a hanging propane heater and spend the savings on better insulation and TOOLS.

FWIW, I have 1 inch of urethane foam on the walls and deep cellulose in the ceiling. The vast majority of your insulation factor with urethane is in the first 1-1.5".

Joe

[Ted Jay]

Hi All,

I'm new to the site and have just started poking around.

I'm just beginning the process of talking to contractors to rebuild my existing pole building into a dedicated woodshop. The building was home built 30 years ago by the fellow that originally settled the property.

The posts were not treated and are starting to rot from splash due to no gutters.

It has a great existing monolithic slab with the floor portion 6 inches thick. The current thought by all current contributors has been to take down the existing building and stick build a new building using the existing slab.

The demensions are 24 feet by 30 feet and I want to go with a 10 foot ceiling. It will have R21 in the walls, R30 in the ceilings, dual pane argon filled windows, 8 foot wide by 9 foot tall roll up door with I think an R6.7 rating.

I have a 200 amp electrical service at the building.
I want to add a toilet and sink.
My idea is to run windows up high to gain wall space and avoid direct southern light.

My biggest question for planning and expense right now is heat.

I would like to go with hydronic radiant heat in the floor. Which means I will need to put down an insulating barrier then the tubing and pour a I'm told 2 inch layer of concrete over the top.

My only other source would be electricity. Most likely a heat pump. Which would give me AC in the summer. My concern with forced air is it becoming a very efficient air filtration unit. I'm not sure if that is good or bad and How I would handle the filters and at what sort of a maintenance cost.

At this point other than the size 24'x30' I am not committed to anything.

Is 2 inches of concrete over an existing slab going to be sufficient for vibrating machinery? Is there an inexpensive way to filter dust from a forced air system?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks,

Welcome to the Creek Dave.
This is what I'm planning for building the new shop building, a 30x50x14 or a 30x40x14, second story for wood storage, and other storage as needed.
http://www.socketsys.com/index156c.html?id=hom&goog=home
There is a video HERE and if you look to the left on this page under printable materials, lots of info.
Right now I'm looking at the 30x40x14 and adding a garage onto the side.

Adding a wood floor on top of that slab will save your feet, legs knees and back. It won't be as cold as that concrete too.

Good Luck with yours
Ted

[Tim Anderson]

Dave,

Approximately 1.5 years ago I had a 30x50x10 pole building built for my shop and equipment storage. I put in 5 51"x51" windows for natural light and also 6 double T8's and 3 T4's for light. Even with this lighting, if I was doing this again I would add a couple tube skylights in a couple of dark corners. I did put in the radiant heat and really like it. It is set @ 59 degrees year round and during the summer it never gets above 80. Some of the things I think I did right: Added more electric outlets that initially thought, added a catwalk in the attic which I have used several times for access, added drains in floor, added air lines and electric outlets on ceiling. I use hose reels for both. I also have a sink which I use a lot.

[Dave Lessley]

Thank you all so far for the welcome and the advice. As soon as I can figure out how to post pictures I will get them started. I'm sure there is a sticky or FAQ that covers it.

Foam Insulation: According to my local foam installer 51/2 inches of foam provides the same level of insulation as the R21 pink stuff for a 2x6 wall. Is that not true. Does foam make it harder to do electrical? I think I will be using wood panels on the walls 8' up from the floor. They will be screwed on so I can take them loose if I need to to run more wire. I guess I could surface mount conduit. I have never bent conduit before. How hard is that to learn?

Lighting: My current design is to have 24 two tube T8 fixtures.

Heat: I would love to have radiant heat but the cost is significant. I am one of those folks who does not care for any kind of gas once I saw what happened to a friend of mine's house and his neighbors house when the neighbors house blew up from a gas malfunction. I spoke with a fellow last night at a design and drafting class I'm taking and he has a 1200 foot shop that he heats with two of the 220V hanging electric heaters. I don't like hot summer days. I lived in the NW all my life and anything over about 75 degrees is too much. The older I get the less tolerant I am. Fortunately I'm a model railroader if it gets to hot I can go down to the basement and play. AC would be nice which I would get with forced air. I'm just trying to figure out the filtration portion of it. I don't want to be paying $100.00 a month in filters. It is possible to tie solar panels into radiant heat but the cost of the panels again are significant. For me probably prohibitive.

Bathroom: I am on a septic system. This weekend I'm going to dig down to find the connection to the tank to see if I have enough drop to do the bathroom.

Time Frame: I'm waiting to hear back from contractors on initial quotes. Once I know where I'm at with my budget I will be able to move forward. My goal is to have it turn key September 1st. That's all moved in, the equipment tuned up and ready to make sawdust.

The biggest problem is I save everything. My existing shop is full to the brim. I'm currently executing operation purge. If it is not related to woodworking within one generation I'm selling, donating or dumping. Fortunately my neighbor saves everything and has taken everything I have set out so far including the dump stuff. The first set of pictures will demonstrate my point. I will be renting a pod to put all my tools and machinery in during the build.

I have started a visio layout of the shop with my equipment but I'm not sure how to convert that to where I can post it for you folks to see.

Thanks again

DaveL

[Chris Padilla]

Thank you all so far for the welcome and the advice. As soon as I can figure out how to post pictures I will get them started. I'm sure there is a sticky or FAQ that covers it.

Foam Insulation: According to my local foam installer 51/2 inches of foam provides the same level of insulation as the R21 pink stuff for a 2x6 wall. Is that not true. Does foam make it harder to do electrical? I think I will be using wood panels on the walls 8' up from the floor. They will be screwed on so I can take them loose if I need to to run more wire. I guess I could surface mount conduit. I have never bent conduit before. How hard is that to learn?

Lighting: My current design is to have 24 two tube T8 fixtures.

Heat: I would love to have radiant heat but the cost is significant. I am one of those folks who does not care for any kind of gas once I saw what happened to a friend of mine's house and his neighbors house when the neighbors house blew up from a gas malfunction. I spoke with a fellow last night at a design and drafting class I'm taking and he has a 1200 foot shop that he heats with two of the 220V hanging electric heaters. I don't like hot summer days. I lived in the NW all my life and anything over about 75 degrees is too much. The older I get the less tolerant I am. Fortunately I'm a model railroader if it gets to hot I can go down to the basement and play. AC would be nice which I would get with forced air. I'm just trying to figure out the filtration portion of it. I don't want to be paying $100.00 a month in filters. It is possible to tie solar panels into radiant heat but the cost of the panels again are significant. For me probably prohibitive.

Bathroom: I am on a septic system. This weekend I'm going to dig down to find the connection to the tank to see if I have enough drop to do the bathroom.

Time Frame: I'm waiting to hear back from contractors on initial quotes. Once I know where I'm at with my budget I will be able to move forward. My goal is to have it turn key September 1st. That's all moved in, the equipment tuned up and ready to make sawdust.

The biggest problem is I save everything. My existing shop is full to the brim. I'm currently executing operation purge. If it is not related to woodworking within one generation I'm selling, donating or dumping. Fortunately my neighbor saves everything and has taken everything I have set out so far including the dump stuff. The first set of pictures will demonstrate my point. I will be renting a pod to put all my tools and machinery in during the build.

I have started a visio layout of the shop with my equipment but I'm not sure how to convert that to where I can post it for you folks to see.

Thanks again

DaveL

Open cell spray foam insulation goes for 3.5-4 R per inch and closed cell goes for about 6-7 R per inch. Batts will NEVER get you the indicated value printed on them--you will be lucky to get HALF of that if they are installed correctly. The reason is air-flow. The foam gets in every nook and cranny to seal but batts simply cannot do that. Their R values are determined in highly controlled lab environments and these simply do not exist in the real world.

Open cell is soft and easy to rip a chunk out with your hand and therefore is easy to fish through. Closed cell is like cement and can actually add to the structural rigidity but is basically closed off for ever fishing future wires through.

Wood panels that can screw off and on sound like a dandy idea to me but they will be pricey although very convenient. The one or two times I tried to bend electircal conduit, I didn't fare well. In my garage gut I did recently, I simply used metal flex line for my conduit.

I used 8' (4 4' T8 bulbs per) fluorescent fixtures. I have 8 of these installed in my garage, 4 rows of 2 fixtures...on 4 separate switches. Paint the inside a nice semi-gloss or gloss white to reflect light!

I guess forced air is what you want then and you have an excellent point in regards to A/C! Perhaps invest in washable/reusable filters and rotate through 2 or 3 of them over time?

You need to be sure the septic system can handle the additional load of another sink and toilet. I'm guessing it can but that needs to be checked.

We are all savers...especially cut-offs. There is always some use for scrap wood...good luck with your culling!

Also, we can help you figure out how to post pictures...just ask! Play around with a bit first as it is fairly straight-forward.

[Rob Damon]

I am having a 1200sf shop built which is 24'Wx50'L with 10' ceiling, slab on grade. They should be connecting the 200amp service next week and finishing the plumbing for the toilet and laundry style wash sink next week as well. I put down 12"x12" tiles on the bath floor and for a 5'x7' space at laundry sink which is next to the personnel door entry. The building is dryed in and electrical/plumbing rough-in has passed inspection.

I was going to have a 8'Hx8'w garage door put in but was talked out of it by the contractor, who suggested going with 10' wide garage door.

The first time I had the BORG deliver a load of 70 sheets of 4'x8' OSB and some dry wall for finishing the inside off and the fork lift was able to set it inside the garage door, I was glad I listened to the contractor. Since the fork lift delivery of the sheet stock sitting sideways on forks would not have made it through the 8' wide door.

Rob

[Eric Haycraft]

Foam Insulation: According to my local foam installer 51/2 inches of foam provides the same level of insulation as the R21 pink stuff for a 2x6 wall. Is that not true. Does foam make it harder to do electrical? I think I will be using wood panels on the walls 8' up from the floor. They will be screwed on so I can take them loose if I need to to run more wire. I guess I could surface mount conduit. I have never bent conduit before. How hard is that to learn?

Foam will probably save 5 minutes of time and 5 bucks on the electrical over fiberglass. The only real differences are that you can use standard electrical boxes (cheaper) on the exterior walls and you don't have to spray great stuff in the holes leading to the trusses.

Heat: I would love to have radiant heat but the cost is significant. I am one of those folks who does not care for any kind of gas once I saw what happened to a friend of mine's house and his neighbors house when the neighbors house blew up from a gas malfunction. I spoke with a fellow last night at a design and drafting class I'm taking and he has a 1200 foot shop that he heats with two of the 220V hanging electric heaters. I don't like hot summer days. I lived in the NW all my life and anything over about 75 degrees is too much. The older I get the less tolerant I am. Fortunately I'm a model railroader if it gets to hot I can go down to the basement and play. AC would be nice which I would get with forced air. I'm just trying to figure out the filtration portion of it. I don't want to be paying $100.00 a month in filters. It is possible to tie solar panels into radiant heat but the cost of the panels again are significant. For me probably prohibitive.

If you really want to use electric for heating, look at a heat pump. They don't work in all areas, but if it works in your area it will be much cheaper to run than an electric heater. You also get 'free' ac with it. With forced air, I can't imagine you spending 100 a month on filters.. 200 a year tops and that is if you get really expensive media filters for it.
Also, gas explosions are extremely rare and the odds are almost infinitely low. If you are truly worried, you can get a gas leak detector to notify you or even cut the gas automatically if a leak is detected inside. Also, in a workshop as long as everything is powered off and there isn't a phone in the shop, the odds are exactly 0 of an explosion from it as long as you remember.. sniff, then switch when entering the shop. While inside the shop, you will smell the gas long before the concentrations are high enough to pose an explosion risk.

[Louis Rucci]

Dave,

Last year I had a workshop built with pretty much the same dimensions as yours.

I went with 3 courses of block and a 8' wall on top of that. My plan is to use close cell foam insulation on the walls and radiant heating.

Instead of laying the material on top of your existing slab and pouring a extra 2" look into radiant heat units you can mount on the wall.

Both companies I looked into recommened four 1000w units, one in the center of each wall. I haven't priced them yet but here's the links if you want to check them out.
http://www.electricheat.com/

www.sshcinc.com

[Dave Lessley]

It sure is great to have you folks to talk to about these things

I'm sending infomation to the folks at electric heat to explore that avenue. The fellow who installed my heat pump for my house is at a seminar and will get back to me tomorrow.

If I remember correctly the spray foam folks said when they go over 1 or 2 inches they switch over to using the open cell foam. I had not considered the gap and hole plugging aspects of foam. Any problems with sealing up the building too tight?

When I installed my septic system I set it up for a four bedroom home and we only have three so I should be okay there.

If I went with propane I would need to bring in a tank. Not sure what that costs.

I live in the foothills on the north east portion of the the willamette valley mostly associated with Oregon but actually extends up into SW Washington. Weather is fair average temperature is in the 50's with winters sometimes dropping below freezing but averaging 38 or so. summers we get a couple of months of 80's plus and a few days of high 90's avg 78. Weather patterns are changing so hard to say exactly.

I have a friend who keeps telling me to go with an 10' wide roll up door but I need the wall space on the inside for a panel saw.

It might help me if I can get the floor plan where you folks can see it and make recommendations on where to put everything.

Again I sure appreciate the feedback. I know in the end I'm the one that has to make the decision. So far none of it is cast in stone except the existing slab. Your input is being considered and followed up on.

Thank you,

[Dennis Jackson]

A couple of ideas:

Why don't you run the electrical in the ceiling around the edge of the shop. That way you could drop a new conduit down along the wall whereever you want it.

Can you add a small addition for the bathroom? A small slab and additional walls might be easier than cutting the concrete out, and if you need the additional drop you could raise the floor. May even be able to do it with a wood floor.

[Joe Chritz]

Propane tanks are usually free or minimum cost if you are with a provider. If you have natural gas you can run a line and use that.

Spray urethane closed cell foam is 7.8 per inch at least the stuff I used was. It also is a 100% vapor barrier and has a heat reflective value. That increases the usable R factor considerably. You don't need anywhere near 5 inches. My whole house used 2.5 and that is probably over kill. Don't be fooled by R factor alone, there are other factors to figure.

Other advantages of spray foam is no rodents stealing the insulation for homes, added rigidity to the structure and more that I am not thinking of at the moment I am sure. Electrical isn't a problem normally since there is space between the foam and wall covering normally. Or you can run the electric then spray and seal the wires in or both.

Insulation contractors must make more on fiberglass (blown or batt) and cellulose because several have tried to talk me out of it or just didn't return calls or bid requests.

Joe

[Dave Lessley]

A couple of ideas:

Why don't you run the electrical in the ceiling around the edge of the shop. That way you could drop a new conduit down along the wall whereever you want it.

Can you add a small addition for the bathroom? A small slab and additional walls might be easier than cutting the concrete out, and if you need the additional drop you could raise the floor. May even be able to do it with a wood floor.

Dennis that is a great idea on the bathroom. Not only would I not need to chip out the concrete but it would also move me closer to my connection there by reducing drop required. Not by much but it might make the difference. It would also give me back some room in the shop.

The conduit is a good idea as well. I plan on dropping the power from the ceiling for the machines out in the middle of the floor already.

Again great ideas. Thank you,