Frank's Wrkshop: Dust Collection Plans

[Frank Pellow]

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I was really amazed at how much more room was needed for the long radius elbows when laying out the newer duct work through part of my shop after putting in the larger Oneida 2hp Commercial system! But they do make a noticiable difference in air flow and performance.

Jim what is the radius of these? I want to know about 7", 6", and 5".

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

Long-radius elbows, are typically 2 1/2 times diameter. So a 7" duct(90), would be 17 1/2" radius.

A 6" diameter 90, would have a 15" radius, and a 5" 90, would have a 12 1/2" radius.

Regards, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Jim what is the radius of these? I want to know about 7", 6", and 5".

I'll check when I return to the shop, but the adjustable elbows from Oneida are 1.75 x diameter according to their web site. I can only actually measure the 6" and 5" as my 7" elbows are only very gentle, partial bends to get from the inlet level of the cyclone up to ceiling height with a minimal distruption of air flow.

[Frank Pellow]

I'll check when I return to the shop, but the adjustable elbows from Oneida are 1.75 x diameter according to their web site. I can only actually measure the 6" and 5" as my 7" elbows are only very gentle, partial bends to get from the inlet level of the cyclone up to ceiling height with a minimal distruption of air flow.

Thanks in advance Jim. 5" and 6" will be fine.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim and Frank, seems odd that Oneida would refer to their 1.75x diameter elbows, as well as their 2.5x diameter elbows, as BOTH being long radius.

http://www.oneida-air.com/ductwork/elbows.htm

Here's "AirHandling's" take on long radius. These are the folks who did the ducting for Norm Abram's New Yankee Workshop.

http://www.airhand.com/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=1
http://www.airhand.com/product.asp?C...bCategoryID=26

Frank, here's a link to Maticair, apparently just outside Toronto. Might be worth your while talking to them. They are a manufacturer, and buying direct can save you a whack o' cash.

http://www.maticair.com/

Here's a post by "Gus, in Maple", and some pics of his installation. He bought his spiral pipe from Maticair, but bought HVAC elbows at a local big-box store. I bought all 6" spiral from a local manufacturer, and paid $17.00 per 10 foot length, tax included..

http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/c...pl?read=116987

Good luck, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim and Frank, seems odd that Oneida would refer to their 1.75x diameter elbows, as well as their 2.5x diameter elbows, as BOTH being long radius.

They are two different products made in different ways. The first is an adjustable elbow (1.5 x diam radius) and still has a lot more room than the elbows from the 'borg. The second is a machine-made elbow (non-adjustable-2.5 x dia radius). And, of course, they sell a gored elbow that is mucho-dollars with a big radius.

The ones I have are the long-radius adjustable type. Frank, here are the measurements:

6" = ~10" radius
5" = ~ 8" radius
4" = ~ 6" radius

Please note that this is a visual estimate...

[Frank Pellow]

Holy smoke Frank, did you win the 6/49 Jackpot, lol???? A trailer full of wood wood be sooo nice;-)). Frank, did you get to check out their handtools? Did they carry Lie-Nielsen by any chance?? Or Adria saws???.

I think I'll contact Welbeck, and get on a mailing list.

All the best, Bob

No lottery win -> my trailer is small.

I've only been to Welbeck Sawmill once and did not check their hand tools. I will be going again near the end of October and will let you know then (if you have not already found out). Bob, I encourage you to visit the place in person.

Also thanks for all the information on ducting that you posted earlier today.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Frank,

You're quite welcome, re. "the ducting info". Sure takes a chunk off the total cost of that dc, if you buy direct. The outfit I dealt with, was "Mega-Tube", in laval Qc. These small manufacturers are everywhere. Usually in the Yellow pages, under "piping".

I have a few "gored" long radius elbows, and paid roughly half of retail price. Those can cost about $60. each. I prefer the really smooth stamped steel long-radius elbows, but havn't found a supplier yet. Nordfab has those, I think.

The adjustable HVAC 90's are quite inexpensive, and you can adjust them to 45*, and connect two, end to end, to make a nice long radius 90*.

Frank, have you given any thought to running your ducting under the floor??? Sure would avoid a lot of drops, and the rise. Probably reduce overall length, and cost, too.

I'd love to see Welbeck Sawmill one day. I havn't been to Toronto area for a long time, and I understand Welbeck, is a few hours drive north-west of Toronto.

I'm a longggg wayyy offf. About 5 1/2 hrs east of Toronto.

I've been trying to catch up on your shop posts. Very interesting, and well done. Congratulations.

All the best, Bob

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Frank,


Frank, have you given any thought to running your ducting under the floor??? Sure would avoid a lot of drops, and the rise. Probably reduce overall length, and cost, too.

...

I've been trying to catch up on your shop posts. Very interesting, and well done. Congratulations.

All the best, Bob

Its too late to go under the floor. Once you catch up on my shop posts, you will see that I finished the floor last May and that this included installing both insulation and wire mesh under the floor. I did consider both dust control ducting and electric cable under the floor but decided against it. Part of this decision, was based on the fact that I wanted to complete the floor at a time when I had not finalized my decisions re dust control and elcectricity.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

Check out a couple of the pics from the CSBBQ at Terry's place; you'll see a good distance shot of the ducting he used for his D/C. I think I might be sold on it.

He used 6" PVC everywhere (Schedule 40). He made all his long radius 90s from 2 45s. I priced some 20' lengths of 6" PVC pipe: $54 at my local h/w store. They had a very poor selection of fittings however, but a 45 was around $12, I think. A 90 was round $22. I plan to check an irrigation warehouse near me and see what they have.

Either way you cut it, ducting is gonna be pricey.

One thing that Terry did that I like, is that none of the PVC was permanently glued. He just friction-fitted them all and then put some caulking around the edge to air-seal it. Worked great! Terry has rerouted his stuff so many time that he is glad it works well this way. Something to think about for future changes.

Anyway, we ran Terry's DC plenty this weekend and so I'm a believer in the kit and this ducting process. It really helps to see it in action and in person.

Good luck and check into PVC...I really think I'm going to go this way unless I can find a good local source of true D/C fittings. We'll see...I'm not worried AT ALL about grounding the PVC or about static build-up...it just isn't a problem.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Chris,

Here are some thoughts and discussions on using PVC. You may find some of the responses interesting.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/PVC_piping.html

Using metal spiral pipe is always the best way to go, since all the fittings are designed to work with this system. These pipes are designed to deal with high-velocity airflows, saturated with abrasive dusts. It need not cost an arm and a leg.

Retailers of spiral pipe, have to pay an arm and a leg to have it delivered to them, store it, advertise it, then in turn , deliver it to you. Why not buy direct from a small local manufacturer? These guys are everywhere. Just look in the Yellow Pages, under "piping". Alternatively, you could try an Industrial heating and ventilation contractor, and ask for a "contact".

I paid $17. Canadian($12.50 US) , for a 10 ft length of 6" diameter heavy-guage spiral pipe. That's cheaper than the price of PVC. They even cut it to length for me, no charge.

The long radius elbows, and tapered wyes, can get a little pricey, especially if you buy retail. Going direct, would cost roughly half, or less. The "gored" elbows, are very labour intensive, since they're made with a single piece of sheet metal, then cut, then all the joints welded. There's nothing wrong with using inexpensive adjustable HVAC elbows. An adjustable 90 degree elbow, should cost about $3.

Those adjustable 90's, can be adjusted to become a 45 degree elbow, simply by rotating the "sections" in oppoite directions; clockwise, counter-clockwise. Connecting two of those adjustable 90's(each set at 45 degrees) end to end, will give you a beautiful long-radius 90 degree turn. Just tape the joints. Make sure the crimped ends, are in the direction of airflow.

Long radius stamped-steel elbows(2.5x diameter) are beautiful, but harder to find. Again, a HVAC contractor should be able to point you in the right direction.

Tapered wyes are just great, but again, can be pricey. Using inexpensive HVAC wyes, with 45 degree take-offs, is fine. 30 degree would be even better, if you can find it. The 45 degree stuff, you can get at any hardware store, and cost peanuts.

As for blast-gates, well, it's pretty hard to beat the ones you'll see at Bill Pentz's site. They're easy to make, cheap, and work very well.

http://www.benchmark.20m.com/article...ebuilding.html

All the best, Bob

[Jim Becker]

Using inexpensive HVAC wyes,...

The one issue with these is that they are "backwards" relative to crimping. Sometimes, it's more cost effective in the long run to purchase "real" dust collection fittings in this respect and as you point out, there are sources that have them at reasonable prices as compared to hard-core retailers. "Longer radius" 26 guage adjustable elbows are also reasonable priced, but not generally available locally. It's just a bit of shopping...

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

"Backwards" crimping need not be an issue with HVAC, if you have access to the proper components. Obviusly with elbows, it's a non-issue. Just point them where you want them to go.

With wye's, if you can only find wyes with "wrong-way" crimps, just cut the crimped section, and use adaptor sleeves. Those can be had where you buy spiral pipe, and are quite different from the ones Oneida shows in their selection. They're not crimped, smooth at both ends, and have a raised ring at mid-point,that the two pipe sections butt up against. Very cheap, too.

With reducers, there are for example 6"-5" reducers, but also 5"-6" "reducers". The crimping is reversed from one to the other.

All the best, Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Here is the shot from Terry's I was referring to. His DC sure sucked!

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Chris, Terry sure has one heck of a shop there, doesn't he. Just amazing. He's got more "toys" in there, than I can begin to imagine, lol.;-))

Here's a few more shots.

http://www.terryhatfield.com/

All the best, Bob