Loose tenons for edge grain to end grain joinery?

[Frank Martin]

I am in planning stages of a dresser. The overall dimensions are 61" long, 35" high, 20" deep. There will be 10 drawers total; 3 rows of double drawers and a row of 4 drawers at the top. I am planning to use post and panel construction for the sides. For joining the horizontal dividers to the sides (posts) traditionally sliding dovetails are used.

How sturdy will it be to replace those sliding dovetails with loose tenons (dominoes, specifically)?
My concern is because where the tenons are joined to the posts, the joint may not be strong enough given it is edge grain to end grain glue area. What do you think?

[Paul Simmel]

The M&T is traditionally used for this application, though aside from the mechanical connection itself, it would be the edge grain of the tenon and the edge grain of the mortise where the glue would hold best. You'd probably be ok with no glue at all in the shoulder (end and edge grain), though I always glue everything anyway.

I know nothing about your Domino first hand, but based on what I know of loose tenon joinery, so long as your tenon is of the long grain variety, it will be more than sufficient. If the joint fails, it would be the Domino's fault insofar as it is supposed to be a cure-all end-all device. But I doubt very much you'd ever have a joint failure, even if you used a plate joiner. (Can't spell biscuit)

[Frank Martin]

Paul,

In my case the dividers are 3/4" thick by 3" wide and in the horizontal plane. Therefore the loose tenon's edge grain will be glued to the end grain of the post, hence my concern. Do you think even in this case, the joinery is sturdy enough?

Thanks!

The M&T is traditionally used for this application, though aside from the mechanical connection itself, it would be the edge grain of the tenon and the edge grain of the mortise where the glue would hold best. You'd probably be ok with no glue at all in the shoulder (end and edge grain), though I always glue everything anyway.

I know nothing about your Domino first hand, but based on what I know of loose tenon joinery, so long as your tenon is of the long grain variety, it will be more than sufficient. If the joint fails, it would be the Domino's fault insofar as it is supposed to be a cure-all end-all device. But I doubt very much you'd ever have a joint failure, even if you used a plate joiner. (Can't spell biscuit)

[Jamie Buxton]

I don't know the domino, but couldn't you turn the dominos so that their faces are vertical? Then you'd have a facegrain-to-facegrain glue joint in the post. You might want to use two dominos in each divider.

[Jim Becker]

M&T construction often has cross-grain situations, yet remains strong. There is a lot of glue area and the tenon is physically constrained by the mortise it lives in. It doesn't matter if it's a "traditional" tenon or a "loose" tenon...the strength is about the same for the same size situation. And, of course, Dominos (or dowels) are just loose tenons, generally in smaller sizes.

That said, the one advantage of the sliding dovetail is that it physically locks the pieces together even without enough glue...

[Jesse Cloud]

The dominoes should be plenty strong enough.

By the way, I don't know who is claiming that Dominoes (which I love) are a 'cure all', but they are just simple loose tenons. The tool pretty much guarantees a tight fit and its often way easier to bring the tool to the workpiece rather than workpiece to the tool. Other than that, dominoes live by the same rules as any other loose tenon.

[Paul Simmel]

Frank,

Ok, I get you. Yes, you will be fine.

The sliding DT would have been (essentially) a tenon anyway, with end grain and edge (or side grain) grain. The only difference in your case is that you want to use a tenon in place of the DT.

Because you have the DOmino, then by all means use two tenons, unless your posts are so narrow only one will fit. Plus, your "tenon" is supposed to be stable, because it is engineered... isn't it? Grain will be less of an issue, then.

Because I do not have the Domino, I would still use a tenon slotted into a horizontal mortise, running cross grain across your post, same as the SD. I might even have the tenon show same as the DT, and I'd be certain that the joint wouldn't fail any time soon.

[Frank Martin]

Looks like no issues with the loose tenon joinery despite the non-optimal grain direction.

I am a big fan of loose tenons. I sure don't think Domino is "cure all", just makes the process faster for me.

Thanks again!

[Alan Turner]

Frank,
The smallest domino is about 1" or so wide and 5mm thick. For this to be effective, it needs to be turned on edge, so that the face of the domino is up and down, as Jamie drew. This means that your drawer blades will need to be thick enough to hold them with enough wood on the blade, top and bottom, to have strength. This would make for awfully thick drawer blades.

Twin vertical tenons are the traditional way to accomplish this joint as they present 4 faces of long grain glue joint area. Or, as you also suggested, sliding dt's.

If you orient the domino front to back, most of the glue area is long grain (on the domino) to end grain (on the corner posts), which is not optimal in terms of strength.

Te bureau you are building is quite large, and you might want to use a strong back on this piece to help avoid racking over time.