12" jointer planer jet / grizzly vs. minmax, hammer, laguna HELP!

[Steve Dewey]

Spent a couple hours yesterday searching sawmill & internet to find the answer, but am probably more confused than when I started...

Looking to upgrade to a bigger jointer (currently have a 6" Rigid which has probably been my best "value" tool purchase ever). Was thinking 8", but the local wood store Highland Hardwoods in Brentwood NH often has 10" plus widths available. It kills me to rip a board in half to get it on the jointer & then glue it back together. So considering a 12" jointer.

The prices of the combo machines have my interest piqued. Space isn't too much of a premium, but more room is alway welcome. Read the FWW review, which unfortunately didn't include the jet or grizzly machines. It's too bad you can't compare all these in the same place.

I had a Jet contractor's saw - not impressed - wouldn't stay in calibration, now have a PM2000 - which is awesome. I also have a Jet belt /disc sander - also not particularly impressed - it takes forever to remove the table to change the belt & is difficult to adjust it square to the belt. I've got a Grizzly shaper & dust collector - DC works OK for it's design (not a cyclone). The shaper fence was a joke (I've got a homebuilt incra on it now which cost me $300 to upgrade, otherwise works fine.

Enough background - here's the question What do the Hammer, Minmax & Laguna get me that the Jet or Grizzly don't? The specifications - dimensions, HP etc. are pretty similar. I realize the Hammer & Minmax have quick change blade systems - not sure about the Laguna. Jet is advertising a 5 year warranty, can't seem to find warranty info on the other tools websites. I realize Laguna has the "platinum" series which is made in Asia vs. Europe, but my PM2000 is made in Asia too.

Mostly looking for feeback on ease of use, accuracy & repeatability. I want to know that once I set the machine up, it will hold calibration. If I set the jointer for a 1/32 cut, switch to planing & back, I want to be sure that I'm back jointing at 1/32 w/o any fiddling around. Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over. Is the Wixey digital read out (DRO) compatible with these machines?

Lastly - can i upgrade to a spiral / helical cutter Shelix / Other on the euro machines?

Thanks for your feedback.

[Jim Becker]

Dewey, the Euro machines are beefier and use different methods for fence actuation, etc.

Example: I looked at the Jet J/P yesterday at Curt Harm's place. Very nice machine, especially for the money. One immediate difference I saw, however, was the way the fence is attached to the machine and adjusted. The Jet's fence is on a flat metal construction that site on the jointer bed. There are two ratchet-handle studs that are used to lock it down. On my MiniMax FS350, the fence is on a heavy round bar mount that moves smoothly back and forth with one locking knob. For the angle adjustment on the fence, the Jet again requires a two-sided approach with knobbed studs to lock...and that last little rotation can knock off the accuracy as the metal will move as you rotate the knob. On the MM, there is one lever for locking the fence angle and it stays where you put it, meaning you can have one hand on your square and lock the fence with the other at precisely 90º to the bed. The cast iron on the Jet is adequate, but less substantial than on the MM in thickness and structure.

None of this is "bad". I believe that the Jet and Grizzly machines offer a wonderful opportunity for folks to acquire a nice J/P combo for about the same cost as a quality 8" jointer and 15" planer separates. And I'm a believer in wide jointers as they add a lot of utility that is quite useful. When you step up to Hammer and then up to MiniMax and Felder, you add features, "beef" and, of course, cost.

On your question about cutter heads, some of the Euro machines have different cutter head options and folks like Byrd also make replacement cutter heads. But the results I get with the Tersa knives on my FS350 really wouldn't make me want to spend more money on a spiral/helical cutter. With the wide bed and by skewing the boards, even if it's very slight with a wide board, the Tersa head cuts cleanly even in highly figured stock.

Based on my observation of the Jet yesterday, I believe you could put a DRO on it as I did with my MiniMax machines.

Oh, the jointer cut adjustment doesn't change when you flip between jointer and planer mode and back. Completely different adjustments. Mine is set for about 1/32" and never changes.

[Steve Dewey]

Thanks Jim just the kind of feedback I'm looking for. After I posted this thread I saw your thread on the visit with Curt.

The ratchet studs & knobs are a perfect example of a design that works but requires some fiddling to get right - then you'll never get back to the same setting again (assuming no "stops" at common angles). Probably not a major concern on the jointer - I don't think I've ever changed the angle on my jointer fence & I rarely change the width (mostly because with only 6" of capacity I can't).

Anybody seen / used the Laguna Platinum??

[Mark Singer]

I have the MiniMax TechnoMax 16" J/P/Mortiser . While I don't have knowledge of the other newer machines, I can tell you this is a great machine. The Tersa head allows changing knives in 3 minutes! I just put in an older set of knives and shaved off the rough edge from bent laminations for curved chair back slats. Now I can re instal the new knives. Its a great machine . Maloof has one and says its the best machine in his shop, next to his bandsaw.

[Don Abele]

Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over.

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

[Jamie Buxton]

I can't speak to the other machines, but on my Hammer, the handwheel which adjust the thickness planer has a dial on it which is quite accurate and repeatable. I bought it as an add-on option. I never do the plane/measure/plane/measure/plane/etc dance. I just set the dial and that's it. It is accurate and repeatable to less than .01".

[Steve Dewey]

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

I realize that I'll be cranking away - I want to know if I can get back to 3/4" repeatably - Ie - is the scale accurate? - is there alot backlash in the system requiring me to approach from the same direction so it doesn't drift etc.?

[Steve Dewey]

I can't speak to the other machines, but on my Hammer, the handwheel which adjust the thickness planer has a dial on it which is quite accurate and repeatable. I bought it as an add-on option. I never do the plane/measure/plane/measure/plane/etc dance. I just set the dial and that's it. It is accurate and repeatable to less than .01".

That's what I want to hear - though I suppose a wixey DRO would accomplish the same thing...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I just went through the same decision making process and settled on the Hammer A3-31, my comments are as follows;

Laguna Platinum Series

-jointer fence mount protudes out the back of the machine, the machine would have to be set about 12" out from the wall to use the jointer

- fit and finish weren't what I was expecting, turns out the Platinum edition is Chinese.

- the jointer tables flip towards the operator position, seemed to be in the way in my opinion

MiniMax

- I liked the MiniMax and the decision came down to the Hammer and MiniMax

- good fit/finish and function, exactly what I wanted from a European manufacturer.

- dealer located in Toronto (Where I live).

Hammer

- good fit/finish and function, end mounted fence like the jointer it's replacing had, easy knife changes

- dealer located in Toronto (where I live)


regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

What do the Hammer, Minmax & Laguna get me that the Jet or Grizzly don't? The specifications - dimensions, HP etc. are pretty similar. I realize the Hammer & Minmax have quick change blade systems - not sure about the Laguna. Jet is advertising a 5 year warranty, can't seem to find warranty info on the other tools websites. I realize Laguna has the "platinum" series which is made in Asia vs. Europe, but my PM2000 is made in Asia too.

The Hammer is a superb machine. The folks at Felder will send you a PDF article where (I forget it may have been Fine Woodworking) reviewed the machines together and the Hammer was on the top.

I wouldn't buy a machine from Laguna. I almost bought a TSS from them and the salesman convinced me that I should avoid them. I understand they have a good blade for resawing on the BS.

The Jet and Grizz will have cheaper bearings and thinner steel and cast iron

Mostly looking for feeback on ease of use, accuracy & repeatability

. I want to know that once I set the machine up, it will hold calibration.

Easy Peasy and deadly accurate. I mean within a thousandth of an inch repeatable

If I set the jointer for a 1/32 cut, switch to planing & back, I want to be sure that I'm back jointing at 1/32 w/o any fiddling around.

Yes. it is precise.

Probably more important on the planer side - I want to be able to return to 3/4" easily & reliably - I typically machine similar size wood for a project at the same time, but every once in a while I have to scrap a piece & start over.

Yes absolutely. On all JP combos you have to lower the planar table (to get it out of the way) when you switch to Jointing.

Is the Wixey digital read out (DRO) compatible with these machines?

Yipper skipper lots o' guys have 'em. Felder will sell you a dial that tells you where you are too. It's about $100.00

Lastly - can i upgrade to a spiral / helical cutter Shelix / Other

on the euro machines?

Absolutely. Felder will send / fax you the drawing you need to get one made.


As an aside:
On all Euro machines you have to have some kind of DC. Older American Iron had provisions for ejecting the chips so they didn't get pounded back into the work as it passed under the feed rollers. Europeans simply expect that you will have DC.

I hook my shop vac to the port it's not a problem.

[Chris Padilla]

Steve, with all the J/P combos you have to lower the planer table to switch back over to the jointer. This is so you can flip the dust shield over. Depending on the model, some take a minute, all the way up to several minutes (and lots of turns on the wheel to lower it).

Be well,

Doc

No flipping of the dust shield/hood for my MM FS-41Elite! It stays on one side for both operations.

[Steve Dewey]

This is a great thread - thanks guys

For completeness a couple links to articles referenced above

The FWW article that reviews the Euro machines

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=26

Tom Hintz Review of Jet

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/jetjjp12rvu.html


At this point I think the Hammer A3 31 is the lead contender - seems to offer a little more value than the Minimax. It should be noted that both Minimax & Hammer have dropped their prices a little since the intro of the Grizzly & Jet machines.

Now - just gotta present my case to the Boss. - Recent unplanned for cash inflows (refi on the house $200/month + tax refund + tax stimulus + year end bonus) should help. Ski trip to Utah with the "guys" - not helping...

Perhaps I need to drag her to the hardwood store (she does like it) and point out all the beautiful specimens that won't fit on the current jointer. Or maybe that if we spend a little money it will help the economy & thus our retirement investments will benefit.

[Chris Padilla]

The longer bed of the MM vs. Hammer would do it for me plus the Tersa knife change...so, so, so easy!!

[Don Abele]

No flipping of the dust shield/hood for my MM FS-41Elite! It stays on one side for both operations.

Chris, do you still have to lower the planer table then? And if so, why?

Thanks for the clarification.

Be well,

Doc

[Jim Becker]

I realize that I'll be cranking away - I want to know if I can get back to 3/4" repeatably - Ie - is the scale accurate? - is there alot backlash in the system requiring me to approach from the same direction so it doesn't drift etc.?

Raising/lowering the planer table in my experience is no more than a half a minute or so...I can do the complete changeover on mine in about a minute and a half tops. As to repeatability on the planer thickness setting, you develop a "feel" for your scale. And even with a DRO, there will still always be an insignificant variability due to the granularity of the reading. I've never had an issue with thickness when going back for "one more board" when I forget something, at least with my machine. I don't know how well the value priced machines are setup for that; hopefully well.