Pocket Hole Face Frame Survey

[Daniel Parker]

What do you think of pocket hole face frames? Are they credible in this day and age or are they viewed with a slight look? Any experiences with the Kreg or Porter Cable machines. Not the jigs but the larger pocket hole machines. Has anyone who uses pocket hole face frames every had complaints from clients or negative comments. Taking the glue up process out and having instant face frames could cut production time in half. The kreg DK1100 series looks like a serious set of machines and Ive seen that larger shops often use them. I would like to see if people look down on face frames assembled with pocket holes or since they are out of sight if it doesnt matter to them. Sort of an impromptu survey. If you were a customer would you care how the face frames were constructed? The consideration is for cabinetry not furniture.

[Larry Fox]

I built my face-frames and cabinets for my kitchen project with them. I ended up using about 1,000,000,000,000,004 (+/- 25) of them and you can't see a one of them unless you are REALLY crawling around looking for them. They make things easy, fast, and sturdy so I see no reason not to use them. Maybe there are some purests out there who like to do M&T for face-frames and other measures for the cabinet joints but, so far, I have not had one crawling around in my kitchten.

That said, I don't think I would use them on a project that I would be so bold as to classify as "fine woodworking" where the joinery is a big component of the project.

I have no experience with any of the comercial machines - jig only.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'll ditto what Larry said. The frames come out great! But use a zillion screws at 2 required per joint and one every 6-8 inches on each edge. The advantage I see over biscuits is that the pocket screws require no clamping and no glue-set time. Drill all the holes then screw them all together (or get half way done and go buy more screws then finish screwing them together, been there-done that) and attach the frame to the carcass and move on.

[Joe Chritz]

If I can see the joinery I would care.

If it was an issue of strength, like a chair or table leg/apron then I would care.

Other than that if it can be done as good but faster it is a win all the way around. Just the time saved in clamping is a big savings. I have done frames with biscuits but now use pocket screws almost exclusively.

Joe

[Prashun Patel]

In terms of quality and strength, they're every bit as credible as any other type of joint on a fframe. Even if you added glue to the eqn, you'd still be much faster than most other jts. So, I'd say they have a great place in the mid-low budget range where cost is an issue.

But for the high end, where people appreciate the time and precision and expertise required for perfect miters or t&g or whatever, the very fact that pscrews are easy makes them less appealing here. In fact, you'd probably sell more high-end cabs by advertising that yr pscrew holes are hand-drilled without any jig!

[J. Z. Guest]

It depends on the expectations of your clientele.

If you can't see the pocket holes and if your profit margin is slim to begin with, why the heck not?

On the other hand a customer who pays $1000 for a coffee table has a right to expect more traditional type joinery. (such as Dowels, hahaha)

[J. Z. Guest]

If I can see the joinery I would care.

If it was an issue of strength, like a chair or table leg/apron then I would care.

This is a perfect example. Joe would care. I would care, most people reading this would care. Because we know. But the typical customer doesn't know. If it's sturdy, beautiful, and built to their spec., they're happy.

I don't think the question of whether the screw holes were made by a dedicated machine or a jig is relevant. The machine might be more efficient in the long run, so that is more of a consideration regarding how much volume you're going to crank out, and will your profits support the expense.

[Peter Quinn]

The cabinet shop I worked for catered to multi million dollar homes in a niche market, and the cabinets were closer to furniture grade than production boxes. All face frames were M$T, all doors were M&T, carcuses were assembled with dados, glue and blind screws, face frames were glued on and clamped to dry. Most doors/frames were beaded insets hung on brass butt hinges with mortised ball catches. Lots of curved work, coffered ceilings, big complex crowns, etc. One lady spent $25K on beveled glass from Ireland for 4 doors, true divided lites, gothic arches with crossing bars!

If you suggested using pocket screws or asked why we didn't, even for blind work, you got a BIG HAIRY EYEBALL, then a chuckle...then the foreman said "Son, these people want something closer to furniture, they have the money to be picky and don't even want the appearance of something quick or easy." So no pocket holes no way...they used splines and biscuits, but of course those can't be seen!

In my own little shop I use them all the time, though with a Kreg jig, not a machine. I made the decision not to compete with big manufacturers using high tech factory production to bang out semi custom looking mass market stuff. They do that better than I can hope to at a fraction of the cost. I'm not really qualified to compete at the higher end either. I have turned away every person asking for a bid against a factory made item. Most of my work comes from people who need basic items in non-standard sizes, and it turns out for custom work a small shop is usually cheaper and more efficient than most factories.

I took a class at a local woodcraft in kitchen cabinet production using pocket screws. It was taught by a local professional cabinet maker doing custom cabinets and built-ins out of his garage. I was sold in an instant. They are strong enough, they are quick enough, and darn it, they're worth it! His opening line was something like, "You're here to learn my system for custom utility cabinet production, by this I mean boxes for kitchens and baths. If you came to make furniture your in the wrong room!"

I use PHS for face frames and face frame attachment to cases. I have made samples and tried to destroy them, my testing says they don't give up easily. I haven't found a system I like thats as strong, quick and flexible. The people I have done work for don't seem to care about what they can't see as long as the facades and interiors are attractive and the work durable.
I really don't like them for case assembly due to alignment issues, and they don't seem much faster to me then rabbits/dados/zip R's.

[Jim Becker]

It's the only way I build them. Fast. Strong. Accurate.

[Ben Grunow]

I am a fan but there is definitely a place for the M&T still and there always will.

I was suprised to see that you (Jim Becker) used them on the apron to leg joints on your bedside tables but the more I think aobut it the more sense it makes. All the required strength and about 1/10th the time.

It really is an issue of your personal level of comfort for whatever job you are doing.

[Jack Gingerich]

I used them until I got a Domino........jack

[Daniel Parker]

Hey Jack that was my next question.... Do I splurge on the Domino or the pocket hole....

[Jack Gingerich]

Hi Daniel,

Probably lots of opinions out there about this. There's quite a learning curve (at least for me) with the domino - especially with narrow stock. But it seems easier to me than figuring out how to clamp the joint to keep it from moving as I drive the pocket screw home. And, having repaired antique furniture over the years, I've had to redo more mechanical joints than glued M&T. I do this stuff as a hobby - not production, so keep my opinion in perspective. Jack

[Karl Brogger]

Pocket screws are pretty much the industry standard now. I read some of the posts on here about people having trouble getting things to line up and I don't understand it. I used a Kreg jig for quite a while, its slow but it does the job. I personally woulnd't ever spend the money on the Porter Cable machine, if you are going to spend that much money just spend a bit more and get a Castle Machine. They are fast, super easy to use and do a much better job than any of the models that just use a stepped drill bit.

Mortise & tennon is a better way to go, but not good enough to justify the time it takes to do it in my opinion.

I'm under the empression that some people aren't using glue. You have to use glue.

[Art Mann]

I'm under the empression that some people aren't using glue. You have to use glue.

I quit using glue on face frames. I made up some samples with and without glue and then broke them apart. I couldn't tell much difference one way or the other. How much real holding power are you getting by gluing end grain anyway?