"wood conditioner"

[David Romano]

I am finishing a maple blanket chest with water based dye. I have already used it to finish a bed and the process was difficult, but pretty successful. To prevent blotching, I applied minwax wood conditioner after dewiskering. On the bed, I did this pretty well. Not too much, not too little. With the blanket chest, I thought I had followed the same application procedure and I let it dry for 24 hours. My test piece blotched. So, applied a second coat, keeping in mind the instruction "after 5 to 15 minutes, wipe of any excess". So I applied enough to have just a little excess after about 5 minutes, maybe 10, then wiped it clean.

The next day, the boards looked like they'd been unevenly urethaned, with a speckling of shiny spots over the surface and areas of some yellowing. So, I sanded lightly with 400 grit paper until the surface looked evenly white and without shiny spots.

The first board I stained clearly showed that the amount of sanding translated into more or less penetration of the dye, and that there were still some shiny spots where very little dye had been absorbed.

How the heck does one control this process? What should I do now, sand it all off and start over (PITA) ? I considered using gel stains to avoid the blotchies, but I think it will not match the bed that is already done and will obscure the grain too much. Suggestions?

TIA

David

[Joe Chritz]

The easiest and best way to control blotching on maple (and other prone woods) is to avoid a stain all together and use a dye.

If you must use a stain the best way (that I have found) is to avoid the wood conditioner and use a wash coat (very light thin coat) of 1# dewaxed shellac cut. Sand back then stain. It will change the look of the stain dramatically, making it lighter but usually no blotching.

I don't know what is in the wood conditioner but I expect it is some kind of very thin wiping varnish to seal some of the pores. Essentially doing the same thing as shellac.

Always practice on scrap first. All the way through the finish process, especially with a dye since it looks much different after finish.

Joe

[Jim Becker]

David, the pre-stain conditioner is not really meant to be used with a water soluble dye--it's more suited to oil based pigment stains. Further, the dye will look a bit muddy after it dries, but will become transparent once you add oil and shellac or just shellac to seal it before continuing with your top coats. Always test on scrap first as Joe states...preferably scrap from the project piece.

[David Romano]

The easiest and best way to control blotching on maple (and other prone woods) is to avoid a stain all together and use a dye.

If you must use a stain the best way (that I have found) is to avoid the wood conditioner and use a wash coat (very light thin coat) of 1# dewaxed shellac cut. Sand back then stain. It will change the look of the stain dramatically, making it lighter but usually no blotching.

I don't know what is in the wood conditioner but I expect it is some kind of very thin wiping varnish to seal some of the pores. Essentially doing the same thing as shellac.

Always practice on scrap first. All the way through the finish process, especially with a dye since it looks much different after finish.

Joe

Joe,
As I mentioned, I am using a dye and my test piece blotched with a light coat of the conditioner, so I put on another and then it was too much. The conditioner is basically diluted poly. I have used this combo sucessfully on a maple bed that I did last year.

David

[Joe Chritz]

I guess I read water based and didn't go any farther.

With a dye you shouldn't need any conditioner. I wonder if the conditioner is effectively sealing the pores and the dye is acting more like a stain.

Just out of curiosity lets see if I read this right this time.

Wood conditioner then dye?

Is it the minwax conditioner that is designed for water base stains?

I wouldn't think that multiple coats of conditioner would have much effect or at least not much positive effect.

A gel stain may be a way to salvage what you have, or possibly some tinted shellac as a toner. That would require spraying though and I don't know if you are set up for that.

Joe

[David Romano]

I guess I read water based and didn't go any farther.

With a dye you shouldn't need any conditioner. I wonder if the conditioner is effectively sealing the pores and the dye is acting more like a stain.

Just out of curiosity lets see if I read this right this time.

Wood conditioner then dye?

Is it the minwax conditioner that is designed for water base stains?

I wouldn't think that multiple coats of conditioner would have much effect or at least not much positive effect.

A gel stain may be a way to salvage what you have, or possibly some tinted shellac as a toner. That would require spraying though and I don't know if you are set up for that.

Joe

I have the book "understanding wood finishing" by Bob Flexner. That's where I got the idea about wood conditioner. As I mentioned, I have done this before with success. Wood conditoner, then water based dye. You can use the conditioner under a water based product.

Last time I did this, on the bed I made, the dye went on in very even, light coats letting me build up the color. To add some sparkle, I tinted SealCoat shellac and wiped it on as a toner. Spraying would have been better, but it worked OK. Then I finished it off with of a few coats of wipe on poly.

My basic question is, how do you know how much conditioner is enough?

Thanks,
David

[Steve Schoene]

As others have said, pre-stain conditioner is to deal with problems of blotching with pigmented stain. Dye on the other hand blotches very little, and using wood conditioner before dye is likely to increase blotching not reduce it.

Flexner does talk about pre-stain wood conditioners, but only in the context of applying stain with pigment, not in relation to dye.

[David Romano]

As others have said, pre-stain conditioner is to deal with problems of blotching with pigmented stain. Dye on the other hand blotches very little, and using wood conditioner before dye is likely to increase blotching not reduce it.

Flexner does talk about pre-stain wood conditioners, but only in the context of applying stain with pigment, not in relation to dye.

It's difficult to tell what he meant in the book concerning the use of conditioners with dyes, I 'll give you that. But also, on the Homestead finishing website, the technical specs for TransTint do mention the use of washcoats for woods that blotch. Plus, my hard maple test piece blotched with a light coat of conditioner, as well as with no conditioner.

David

[Steve Schoene]

I do see that in the TransTint TDS. Frankly I wouldn't do it since applying wash coats and pre-stain conditioners is, as you have discovered, very difficult to get just right. I do use a wash coat between layers of dye with mahogany to liven up what can be pretty boring wood. I start with a lemon yellow dye, apply a wash coat of 1 lb. shellac, and when dry, I put on a brown mahogany dye. The shellac nearly seals the harder parts, but leaves the more porous places less than fully sealed. Consequently, the yellow shines through the overall brown color as a highlight where the dye didn't take very much. That's essentially creating a desirable blotch on otherwise pretty plain wood. I do go on with a pigment stain or pore filler which tones down the wildness a little more, if it is too much.

There is a method that is less risky I think, and that is to wet the surface to be dyed with distilled water, wipe off any excess, and apply the water soluble dye while the surface is still wet.

Blotching with dye is also less if the dye is applied quite generously. That way all areas get full penetration, not just areas that are prone to soak up the fluid.

[David Romano]

I may try the water method next time, that's not a bad idea. Thanks for the tip!

David