Is this an early Stanley?

[Martin Cash]

I need some help from my esteemed colleagues on the forum who are knowledgable in plane lore.
I acquired this lovely old plane as the only bidder in a recent auction.
I think it is an early Stanley but I am not sure.
It has no markings of any description on the body or the frog, and it clearly lacks a lateral adjuster.
The blade is a replacement I think and is stamped Stanley SW Canada.
The rear handle has a pronounced thickening around the base and it and the low knob appear to be rosewood. There is a chip off the top of the rear handle but it does not appear to have removed much of the wood.
What do you think?
How carefully should this be restored?
Or is it quite common and to be a user only?
Thanks in anticipation
MC

[steve swantee]

Hello Martin, nice find. Any patent dates stamped inside recessed portion of depth adjust. knob? A Stanley of this vintage would have Bailey's patent dates inside. Also you would turn the knob to the left to increase depth of cut instead of to the right as on later models. The rosewood knob would also have a beaded base, but your's doesn't appear to have that-but it could very well be a replacement. The sweetheart iron is also a replacement. The horn on the tote appears to have been trimmed down, perhaps it was chipped badly in an earlier life and reshaped. Hope this is some help to you.

Steve

[Greg Drozdowski]

Hi Martin,
From the photo's it looks to be a type 4. As Steve said it should have the patent dates in the recess area of the adjusting nut.
Great Find, Greg

[Martin Cash]

Thanks Steve and Greg.
It is about the length of a number 5 - around 13 1/2 inches.
The winder does indeed rotate to the left to increase depth of cut, but there are no dates or anything else inside the depth adjusting brass knob.
Does this help refine the search?
Regards
MC

[steve swantee]

I thought at first maybe someone had replaced the brass adjusting knob, but I believe the first knobs without the pat.dates inside are type 7, but they turn to the right to increase depth of cut ( I have a type 7 #4), so I don't think that this is the case. I wonder if perhaps it could be an early Union plane. I beleive that they copied this design, but I don't know if they had any markings on their early planes as I am mostly only familiar with the Stanleys. As Greg said, if it is a Stanley it would be a type 4, but that adjusting knob just doesn't make sense. Hope someone else can shed some light on this, as I would like to know the answer myself.
Steve

[Jim Koepke]

I thought at first maybe someone had replaced the brass adjusting knob, but I believe the first knobs without the pat.dates inside are type 7, but they turn to the right to increase depth of cut ( I have a type 7 #4), so I don't think that this is the case. I wonder if perhaps it could be an early Union plane. I beleive that they copied this design, but I don't know if they had any markings on their early planes as I am mostly only familiar with the Stanleys. As Greg said, if it is a Stanley it would be a type 4, but that adjusting knob just doesn't make sense. Hope someone else can shed some light on this, as I would like to know the answer myself.
Steve

The easiest way to confirm might be to check the threads on the knob and tote post. This would either require a thread gauge or another Stanley plane to compare threads with.

Stanley planes use #12 screws with 20 threads per inch. This is the same for the rods holding the knob and tote and, the front screw on the tote and the frog screws. Other makers used different thread pitches. The adjuster does not look like the early Stanley adjusters. They seem to have a little tapper. I have seen the brass so stained as to not be able to see the stamping inside.

The handle does not look quite right either. I think Union used something other than rosewood for their handles.

The knob looks to have been replaced. Stanley used a beaded knob until about 1889. Union may have kept the bead longer. It also looks like there is wear to the japanning at the base of the knob. This could indicate a knob that was bigger around having been there at one time.

If you do have a thread gauge or another way of checking the threads, let us know what is there and I can check what is on my Union plane.

jim

[steve swantee]

I've been thinking the exact same thing about that handle, Jim. It just doesn't look right to me. It looks as though the horn might have been chipped at some point and rounded down some, but even at that, it just doesn't look right to me. I had actually thought about mentioning that in my earlier post, but I thought that maybe it was just me. Glad someone else had the same thought.

Steve

[Martin Cash]

Thanks Steve and Jim.
Yes there does seem to be a wear ring in the paint around the front knob, so this one is probably a replacement.
There is definitely nothing written inside the brass adjuster nut, I gave it a good clean and looked again.
I don't have a thread gauge, but I can try a known Stanley screw in the thread, and I can try to photograph the two together if that will help.
I picked up a Union X5 corrugated jack plane with vertical post adjustment last week and it should arrive this coming week. I can compare threads when it arrives.
I'll attach a photo of the Union plane so that the rear handles can be compared. They do look similar in profile, especially at the base where they thicken out.
Thanks again guys.
MC

[Jim Koepke]

The base looks like the description of a type 4, but not the picture on Johnny Kleso's site. Looking at the images of pre-lateral planes on eBay looks a lot like what you have.

The screws for the frog look to have round heads.

It could be a Frankenplane. That is one made up from various parts. I guess with the blade not original, you already have that.

The cap irons from early Stanley planes have Bailey's patent stamped into them.

My 4-1/2 type 6 does have a handle that is fat at the bottom like yours.

I am sure some of the adjusters made it out of the factory without being stamped. They do appear tapered though when looking at them from the side. OK, a caliper was taken out an put to the brass. The knurling closest to the tote is about .030 smaller than the knurling near the frog.

Have you taken the tote off? Some have numbers cast under the tote.
I am not sure if Stanley made planes for others at this time.

As far as collectibility is concerned, that is up to you. You may be able to sell it for more than a newer #5 would cost. As far as users go, having a lateral adjuster is handy but not required. In the shape it is in, it would be for a serious collector to restore.

It is came my way, it would be put to use for awhile. Most likely though, I would sell it because it would just take up room next to the other #5s in my shop. There is not much room in my shop at the moment.

jim

[Martin Cash]

The cap irons from early Stanley planes have Bailey's patent stamped into them.

My 4-1/2 type 6 does have a handle that is fat at the bottom like yours.

I am sure some of the adjusters made it out of the factory without being stamped. They do appear tapered though when looking at them from the side. OK, a caliper was taken out an put to the brass. The knurling closest to the tote is about .030 smaller than the knurling near the frog.

Have you taken the tote off? Some have numbers cast under the tote.
I am not sure if Stanley made planes for others at this time.


jim

Thanks Jim.
I have had another look at the plane's various parts.
There is nothing stamped into the cap iron, but it might have come with the SW blade - 337 on it.
The adjuster is as clean as a whistle - no stampings, but it does taper forwards - yes it tapers towards the frog. with the back slightly wider than the front of the knurling.
There is nothing cast under the tote either.
I hope that this helps.
Kind Regards
MC

[Ryan Cathey]

That "337" means the blade was made during the third quarter of 1937. Just and FYI lol