Japanese chisels vs. cocobolo, with lots of pics

[Frank Drew]

Thanks for the link, David. If they're still being sold and if the quality is the same I was thinking of these tools as a good buy, perhaps a bit less expensive than those by some of the more cult-status makers, but still in every way serious tools, for use by people who do the work for a living.

Wiley, just in the last few days (here, and on the Japanese Woodworking Forum) I've seen Ooichi, Oouchi, Ouchii... I'm assuming they're one and the same but the pronunciation of all three would be different so it's curious to see the variation in English spelling; if I remember correctly the carpenters I worked with, and bought the tools from, pronounced it more like Ooichi. I actually did look at Japan-Tool earlier today and I saw some Oouchi [sic] bench and timber framing chisels (older stock, made in the Eighties, I think), and I think they were all $100+ each. Now that you mention it, I think I remember that chisel test from Fine Woodworking and remember being shocked at the time that they'd cut up such high quality chisels; it was in the interest of science, I know, but still...!!!

[Larry Williams]

...I've never used any tool that got sharper with use; you're proposing the edge tool equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.

Come on Frank, what I'm saying is that I want the dulling process to be the result of molecules abrading away. This leaves a polished but rounded dull edge. I don't want the edge to fracture and drop away pieces of steel.

Yes, I do magnify my edges when sharpening. I would guess I should be used to seeing a more ragged edge than most of those using Japanese tools because my finish stone is a translucent hard Arkansas of about 1000 grit.

If a fractured up edge is sharp and functional to you then you have a different definition of sharp and functional than I do. If the kind of edge problem Wilbur showed in his photos isn't chipping to you than you have a different definition of "chipping" than I do. In my work I often want my chisels to leave a finish surface and, if a fractured up edge leaves one for you, you have a different definition of acceptable finish surface than I do.

[Mike Henderson]

On the subject of Ouchii, it is difficult to find actual metallurgical studies which have tried to get to the bottom of what makes a great chisel. One such study was conducted by a fellow named Bill Stankus, and the Ouchii chisel came out on top of the 11 Japanese and western brands tested.

The reference is "Testing Wood Chisels", pp. 80-84 of a softbound book, 'Bench Tools', from the series The Best of Fine Woodworking. Taunton Press, 1990.

Stankus bench-tested 11 chisels, rating them for edge retention, then cut the chisels up into pieces for metallurgical analysis, testing each one for carbon content, Rockwell hardness at the cutting edge, grain size, carbide presence and distribution.

Stankus then sought to relate the performance of each chisel to these metallurgical properties. What emerged was that hardness alone (Rc hardness) did not explain edge retention or chipping--fineness of grain, and carbide presence and distribution, were essential to edge holding. The three Japanese chisels had the best edge retention, and it appeared to be based jointly on fine grain, good carbide presence and distribution, and Rc hardness. It is notable that only one of the 3 Japanese chisels had an Rc value above 61.5, and that was the most expensive one, an Ouchii at 63.5.

You may be familiar with that study, but I mention it in case not.

Wiley

I'm not familiar with the study but that's the kind of data I've been searching for. However I searched amazon for the book "Bench tools" and also searched Taunton for "Testing Wood Chisels" and for the author "Bill Stankus" but no hits. Could anyone provide a pointer to that study? The ISBN of the book would be good.

Also, since this is a "best of fine woodworking" book, it means that it's an article that was published in Fine Woodworking. Can anyone give the issue number where it appeared? I have a set of FWW so I could just look it up in the issue. Anyone who has a subscription to the articles on the web site could access it also.

If anyone has any other studies of this nature, I'd appreciate you posting a pointer to that study or studies, also.

Mike

[Oops, I found the book on Amazon.]

[Wiley Horne]

Mike,

I guess there's just not much call these days for metallurgical analysis of chisels! Anyway, here's the reference:

'Bench Tools', from The Best of Fine Woodworking
The Taunton Press, 1990
ISBN 0-942391-84-5

Article is on pp. 80-84,
'Testing Wood Chisels'
by Bill Stankus.

It appears this article is anthologized in this book from an earlier published article in Fine Woodworking magazine. The reference to the magazine article is,

Fine Woodworking magazine
March 1985
51: 44-48.

I take it that '51' is a volume number, and 44-48 are the pages.

I could probably scan it for you at about 1/2meg to 1meg per page, for the five pages.

Also, thank you very much for the detailed description of the LN chisel working characteristics, from your earlier post. It's very interesting and helpful I think.

Wiley

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

I guess there's just not much call these days for metallurgical analysis of chisels! Anyway, here's the reference:

'Bench Tools', from The Best of Fine Woodworking
The Taunton Press, 1990
ISBN 0-942391-84-5

Article is on pp. 80-84,
'Testing Wood Chisels'
by Bill Stankus.

It appears this article is anthologized in this book from an earlier published article in Fine Woodworking magazine. The reference to the magazine article is,

Fine Woodworking magazine
March 1985
51: 44-48.

I take it that '51' is a volume number, and 44-48 are the pages.

I could probably scan it for you at about 1/2meg to 1meg per page, for the five pages.

Also, thank you very much for the detailed description of the LN chisel working characteristics, from your earlier post. It's very interesting and helpful I think.

Wiley

Thanks, Wiley, I have the article in front of me right now. I have a set of the old FWW magazines.

I've searched for the article on the FWW site but have not been able to find it anywhere. Some time back I communicated with the editor of FWW about the availability of old articles and he told me that they had not obtained electronic rights from the authors back then - and now, they can't find some of the authors, or the authors will not give electronic rights. So it may not be available on the web.

I'll read over it. Thanks for posting that info.

Mike

[Frank Drew]

Yes, it's in issue #51. Rereading it now, I'd forgottem about the short sidebar at the end of the main article, in which a fellow named Paul Horgan, who says his background was in metals quality control, basically dismisses the idea that there are any qualitative differences in modern day chisels, and says that the Japanese still use laminated construction because 1) They revere tradition and 2) Recognize a good marketing ploy when they see one. In other words, he implied, they're selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

I remember thinking at the time, "What an idiot."

Mike, if Wiley's scan doesn't work for whatever reason, I can Xerox the article and fax or mail it to you.

[Mike Henderson]

I want to remind everyone that the perceived advantage of Japanese chisels is that the steel in the edge is harder than in western chisels and therefore they will retain an edge longer.

But Japanese chisels are an acquired taste - you may like them, or you may not. For example, I don't find the handles to be comfortable in my hand (but then, I don't like many chisel handles).

While I recommend everyone to try both western and Japanese chisels, I would also recommend you purchase only one or two of whatever type you don't have and see how you like them before spending a lot of money (unless you have a lot of money).

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I suspect your Ouchii (yet a third spelling) chisels have achieved legendary status today. I have seen the brand name advertised by a Miki City maker, but it's not the same article as the western Japan maker who made yours....

Iida-san sells a set of Ouchi oire nomi for $794 US.

Pam

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Pam,

I could be wrong, but.....if you read Iida-san's ad carefully, it appears to me that a Miki City maker is using the older brand name, but those chisels currently being advertised are not coming from the shop that made Frank's chisels. Of course, it would be a small miracle if the original smith were still working, in any event.

Wiley

[Wilbur Pan]

I would consider that nick of seven or eight thousandths pretty significant. It would, in fact, be on the large size if I was looking at an edge on one of my chisels. You're talking about big chunks spalling off an edge and I'm talking about how the edge degrades in use. I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished, I don't want it to get jagged through either chipping or folding from being too soft.

Neither do I. For what it's worth, as I proceeded to whack away at those notches in the 8/4 white oak, towards the end the chisel did seem to slow down some, as I had mentioned. It could have been that my arm was tiring out, and it could have been edge breakdown. But the way it was slowing down was indistinguishable from the breakdown of the edge of western chisels I've used, except that the overall process was slower.

In other words, the feel of the wearing process seemed to be identical to what you are describing that you would want in your chisels.

And in an attempt not to talk past each other, when I said that the nick in the corner was a guesstimated 1/128" of an inch I meant that the width of the nick along the edge was 1/128th of an inch, but didn't mention that the depth of the nick was far shallower than that. To look at it another way, the defect may have been wider than your 24 grit wheels, but the depth of the defect was far smaller.

In any case, the chisel still could cut a clean corner with that nick, again probably because the nick was much wider than it was deep, like a ham handed attempt at cambering the edge.

Hope that made sense.

[Dan Racette]

I don't think this thread convinced anyone of anything!

I think everyone has read this thread and still interpreted it to their liking! It's just really making me perplexed.

Did not the Bench Tools articles talk of Japanese tools having excellent edge retention properties, yet Mike is almost gloating as if his previous points have been "made" because of the points listed by the steak vs. sizzle comment. So when the testing is on the side of the Japanese tools, Mike, you ignore it? And when the opinion is against Japanese tools you believe it? Is that how it works?

I'm really perplexed.

[Mike Henderson]

Did not the Bench Tools articles talk of Japanese tools having excellent edge retention properties, yet Mike is almost gloating as if his previous points have been "made" because of the points listed by the steak vs. sizzle comment. So when the testing is on the side of the Japanese tools, Mike, you ignore it? And when the opinion is against Japanese tools you believe it? Is that how it works?

I'm really perplexed.

I don't know if I'm the "Mike" you're referring to but if it is, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I'm gloating over anything.

If I am the "Mike" you're referring to, I ask you to point out where you're getting those ideas from.

If I'm not the person you're referring to, I apologize for questioning you. But even if I'm not the "Mike" you're referring to, personal attacks are really not appropriate.

Mike

[Dan Racette]

Mr. Henderson, I wasn't intending on making an attack. I'm sorry. But it almost seemed to me as though you were gloating to the entire list of posters when you said:
"I want to remind everyone that the perceived advantage of Japanese chisels is that the steel in the edge is harder than in western chisels and therefore they will retain an edge longer"

I was trying to point out that the article listed in the "bench tools" book listed just the opposite of what you said. I will not post anymore to the statements that you have made. I was perplexed as to why you posted it, and I was trying to see what you made, what seemed to be to me, contrary posts.

I apologize if it seems offensive.

Dan

[Mike Henderson]

Mr. Henderson, I wasn't intending on making an attack. I'm sorry. But it almost seemed to me as though you were gloating to the entire list of posters when you said:
"I want to remind everyone that the perceived advantage of Japanese chisels is that the steel in the edge is harder than in western chisels and therefore they will retain an edge longer"

I was trying to point out that the article listed in the "bench tools" book listed just the opposite of what you said. I will not post anymore to the statements that you have made. I was perplexed as to why you posted it, and I was trying to see what you made, what seemed to be to me, contrary posts.

I apologize if it seems offensive.

Dan

Okay, apology accepted. I in no way had any concept of gloating in my mind when I posted that - nor an idea of what I could possibly be gloating about. What I was trying to do was to caution people about getting too excited about any new tool until they have the opportunity to try it out a bit.

Perhaps I was extrapolating what I sometime do.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

For what it is worth, I have not used any Japanese chisels.

I am not one for hooped handles and all the Japanese chisels seem to have them. If a tool is not comfortable in my hands, it is likely to be left unused for the favor of one that does feel good in my hands.

I do believe Mr. Henderson made the same point about the handles not suiting him because of the discomfort caused by the hoops.

I do think his point of chisel material being a physical substance and not a spiritual experience is valid. Steel wrought by vestal virgins stoking the fires on mount Olympus is not going to be any different than the steel made by unshaven grubs as long as the mixture and heat treatments are the same. No amount of ritual will change that.

If someone knows about changes in the trade off in toughness-hardness-sharpness trinity, please elaborate.

I do not whack my chisels with the force of Thor's hammer. Nails are smitten harder in my world, even the small ones.

When my wife was shown an ad with new chisels running in the neighborhood of $50 each, she kissed me on the cheek and said she was happy that I found used chisels OK.

I did have one cheap chisel that was so poorly made that chips would be created when it was being sharpened. It was given to me and it was not made by a western tool maker.

jim