New PM 209 Falling apart! What now??

[Nathan Conner]

So, about 5 months ago, I bought this 20" planer from a local tool distributor after trying out the Jet J/P combo, which didn't impress me a whole lot. It was "used"...sort of. It was being consigned by a guy who was tired of fighting with the shipping co and Powermatic to get cosmetic repair work done, as the base had been banged up a bit during initial shipping.

There was also one 3/16" long hairline crack in the casting of the head. It was at one of the posts, but had been professionally repaired by the shop "to Powermatic's standards" with a 1/4" steel plate bolted into newly tapped holes to about 1" to either side of the crack, which was visible through the paint.

I got a good deal on the planer (like $300 off or something), so I didn't have too much issue with the cosmetic stuff. So the base had some scratches and a dent on it - I didn't care. And the crack looked ok to me. AND...the salesman (owner, maybe?) said these exact words to me, "We will treat this warranty like a new planer warranty, because it hasn't seen any use, and we've been through it."

It was a holy nightmare to get into my shop - it took over 24 hours by myself in the cold February rain with the tractor, 4x4, come-along, ramps, boards, ropes, pulleys and chains, but I got it in there. I did say a bad word, once. (*cough*)

So. It's in the shop, I used it a few times on some Alder. It started to get awfully "rattle-y" in the base of the unit. Sounded like something had come loose and was grinding/rattling/vibrating around in the base unit. I called the place I bought it from, and after a short talk with the repair guy (its funny, they didn't seem excited to do any warranty work, regardless of what the salesman had told me. He said, "But it's used, how could we warranty it?"), I took off the base cover and found two bolts and various nuts, washers and bolts laying on the concrete under the motor. I replaced them all and cranked them all down tight - just motor retaining bolts. I fired it up and it ran quietly. All is good.

I ran about 20 more bf of Alder through it last week, and realized that the outfeed roller is no longer turning, or has come out of adjustment badly, because I have to pull (HARD) to get the wood out the outfeed side once it's passed under the knives. Always with snipe and burn marks. (*sigh*)

A couple of days ago, I had a friend over, and fired it up so he could hear the howl of a well tuned, well-built machine. Ha! What we heard was that noise again, this time, it was REALLY loud. Rattling, screeching, crashing around. Just horrible. I turned it off and pulled the plate again. Nothing visibly wrong, so I took off the motor cover that hides the cooling fins/end of the shaft. Guess what I found!?

The cooling fin piece is now a little mangled ball of aluminum with a huge hole in it. It's obviously come off the shaft and it's what's been crashing and banging around inside the motor cover. The fins are all bent over sideways, and the 5/8" shaft-hole is about 2" and oblong with bent metal everywhere.

While I was at it, unfortunately, I noticed that small crack in the casting in the top has now turned into NINE cracks over about a 6" span all along the side, both under and around that plate modification. Crap!

I'm not impressed with the ~$2,300 planer that's in the shop. It's not running right, looks like the head was cast badly from all the cracks (the paint is cracking right along with it & you can see them), the motor bolts have fallen off twice now, regardless of how tightly I put them on, and the outfeed isn't working. Aside from ALL of that, when you start it it has always started with a "BANG!" and then settles out. It did this at the dealer, too. They said it was normal for this size of machine. I listened to another 209, sounds NOTHING like mine. It's quiet, no vibration, no startup noise.

So. It comes to this. What does anyone recommend? This planer has been turned on and RUNNING FOR LESS THAN TWO HOURS. I haven't talked to the dealer again, so I'll approach them today. I don't want to go in making demands, but something happened to this planer other than "shipping damage". (I had to wrestle it a lot getting it into the shop, but it was NEVER damaged or even dinged. A little light surface rust on the tops before I got steel wool and WD-40 all over it. It still looks "as new".) I hate to go in making demands, but I'd like either this one repaired back to "new" condition or another planer. Is there a safety issue with these head casting cracks? Are the vibrations of the machine just tearing the head apart? I'd hate for that to happen while it's on and have to duck shrapnel and blades!

Heck, I'd even take a smaller planer that worked well at this point. I should have gotten that warranty in writing, and I didn't. I should have listened to everyone who said I didn't need such a big planer, and I didn't. Long list of shouldas.

The other kicker I should mention is that I will NOT move this planer again. EVER. If they want to come out and replace it with a smaller/new planer or have Powermatic come out and do repair work, that's fine with me. I will never lift this planer again. Did I mention that I don't plan on moving it myself?

Any recommendations from you guys? Similar experiences? Is this something Powermatic should step in on? Was this thing rolled off of a truck at 75 MPH? Is it a lemon? Is it safe? Will it ever run correctly? How far should I push, and what do you feel the Machinery company should be responsible for? How would you approach the company/salesman?

Thanks for the advice, sorry it's so long.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Well, first of all - good luck. A lot is riding on your dealer's willingness to "treat you right".

I'm not sure $300 off on a used planer that has cracks and a steel plate is "treating you right", but that's just IMO. One suggestion - if they are an "authorized" PM dealer......call PM and ask to speak to someone about that. I find it hard to believe that drilling holes and adding a steel plate can be done at a dealer "to [PM] standards". I'd use PM's leverage on the dealer to get your situation straightened out.

[Frank Snyder]

I would deal with PM directly. That cast iron head should have been replaced, not "repaired". The 209 has a 5 year warranty, so why the cracked piece wasn't replaced in the first place is beyond me. I would not use it in the mean time for fear of doing further damage to the machine or yourself.

Go give PM a call and explain everything to them.

Frank

[Frank Drew]

Nathan

IMO, you absolutely positively should not have to eat this lemon, and I probably wouldn't accept any "repairs" on this particular machine. You were sold a machine not fit for its intended use.

If the dealer tries to play hardball, do you have any friends who are lawyers who'd be willing to write an appropriate letter on their legal letterhead?

[Paul Johnstone]

Thanks for the advice, sorry it's so long.

I would've demanded my money back, and I stilll would. Tell them that you were sold something that was supposedly fixed 100% and only had cosmetic damage, but had a lot of problems.

I would have zero confidence that they'd ever be able to get this machine working right. Afterall, it looks like they screwed it up the first time they tried.

If they refuse to give you your money back, try to negotiate for credit towards a new planer. Yes, you might have to pay the extra $300, but at least you will have a working machine..

[David Freed]

I think you are out of luck. You let a fast talking salesman sell you a used and damaged machine at almost full price. It is "used" because someone else bought it first. Whether they ever turned it on or not doesn't matter. There is no way PM would authorize a "patch" like you described, so the warranty is probably voided, if it was even transferable to start with. The salesman will just tell PM that it was an "as is" sale, and they are both off the hook because you have nothing in writing stating otherwise. If by some miracle PM would be willing to work with you, you are saying you won't take the planer back for them to make it right, and they aren't going to do it for you. With the damage that it has now, it is going to take lots of time and money to install the new cast parts, with no guarantee that it will be right when you are done. Welding will warp it, and a steel plate screwed into a cast part does not fix anything, and usually causes more damage. If you keep using it, the cast iron will break. It could just stall the machine or it could be a hand grenade (you won't have time to duck). I wish you luck, but I am afraid this is going to be a very expensive lesson about buying equipment.

[Nathan Conner]

They said, "As far as Powermatic is concerned, there is no warranty on this machine."

Because it was damaged/used/repaired/owned by someone else, the warranty is void.

How incredibly disappointing. The good news is that you can't buy the cast head. It isn't sold as an individual repair part, and the machine needs to be replaced. End of story.

So, I need to discuss this with the machinery company I bought it from, and the fast talking salesman. Crap, guys, I think I just may be out of luck on getting cooperation from these guys. Time to talk to an attorney.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

They said, "As far as Powermatic is concerned, there is no warranty on this machine."

But PM might put some pressure on them if you can convince them the dealer acted in bad faith - ESPECIALLY with the 'repair job' they did...

[Scott Coffelt]

Sorry about your porr experience, good luck. I hate to say you may have just learned a very expensive lesson. I am no lawyer, but unless you got something in writing it is his word against yours at this point. No one will win that battle, well they will cause the burden of proof is in your hands.

As for the bolts, try some lock tight that should keep them in. As for the other stuff, sounds like a dangerous situation. You might go back to Powermatic and see if there is anything they can do to allow you to order the cracked components. I would think there would be some liability there for them to at least sell you something to fix it, if not, you may be stuck with parting out to minimize your losses.

My guess is this thing was tipped over in shipment or something else to start with, not sure that was powermatics fault.... though not what you want to hear. Probably needed to be addressed with the original shippers of the unit.

Once again, good luck with your issue.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I would run with the liability issue. We had an issue years ago where the wife got rear ended, and the insurance company did not want to pay for a new trailer hitch because they claimed the old one could be "repaired" (heated and hammered back into shape). When we demanded that they sign a letter stating that they would cover us for any and all issues arising from a failure of the "repaired" hitch.

If you can get PM to agree that their "bolt and plate" repair is NOT safe, then you might have some leverage....

[Tom Hargrove]

According to the Powermatic website, their warranty "covers only the initial purchaser of the product," who in this case was probably the person who was consigning the unit at the dealer. However, this warranty limitation may not be effective in the State of Washington, especially if you bought the planer for personal use. If the warranty disclaimer holds, I think your best course of action is against he dealer. The paperwork you got with the planer is going to be your friend or your enemy, depending upon the warranty(ies)that the dealer provided, or the warranty(ies) that were disclaimed. Some warranties are implied, and some are express, so just because the paperwork doesn't have a warranty on it doesn't mean that no warranties apply.

I won't and am not giving you any legal advice regarding your rights under Washington law, and I hate to tell people to go see an attorney, (even though I am an attorney) but my best advice is to speak to an attorney. Washington is a consumer oriented state, and I would not let this go. Many lawyers will discuss the case with you for no charge, at least over the phone. This is the kind of case I would like to have if I was representing the buyer.

[David Cramer]

Nathan

Many will laugh at the following and say that "you can't do that", but I did and I'd do it again.

After getting burned "more than once" from a salesperson who lied about what they told me, I always bring a little recorder along with me. When I've gone back, I've usually been told that he/she would never say that, so I am **** out of luck. That changed about 2 years ago and I've caught 2 people in major lies.

I recently had a problem with a defective item at a Home Center and sensed I would be told lies, and I was correct.

I recorded an area manager telling me over the phone that it was fine and he'd return the item for a store credit or take it off my credit card, whichever way I chose. Then when I went in the next day, he changed his mind and was a real jerk. He verbally challenged me and told me to go ahead and call the district manager, he could care less and that they aren't going to do anything for me. I worked in a home center before and have never treated anyone like I was being treated or even had personally witnessed anything like this area manager. He denied saying what he had said on the phone and then I said "oh really, I taped ya". The color in his face slowly drained away and he said whatever.

He just changed his mind and I was suppose to walk back to my vehicle and drive a long way back home for an item that I did not break. It was defective and he admitted it, but he now didn't want to do anything. All I wanted was the same item or a store credit, I shop there all the time.

To make a long story short, after calling the Store Manager and Corporate, they changed their mind. Corporate verified that I have never had a problem with any of their stores or even returned anything without a receipt. I was not looking for a free lunch. I was given a full refund and was given an apology by the store manager in writing. In addition, believe it not, I was given a very nice gift card for my troubles.

To the attorney's out there who say its illegal because you didn't make the guy aware that he was being taped, I respectfully respond by saying that I didn't care then and don't care now, I wasn't going to court.

I told the truth, the salesperson lied and he knew it. I've done that twice now with success. You get lied to by a deceiving salesperson and you have no leg to stand on. I drove a long way to that store, 3 times in all, back and forth, and without the recording, I wouldn't have had a chance.

The funny thing is that I never had to play it and probably wouldn't have done so anyways. Obviously, the area manager fessed up to the store manager who must have taken the person aside and said tell me the truth, which this person must have.

Take what you want from this advice, and use it or not, it's up to you. For me, I tell the truth and will continue to do so. I am not trying to highjack your post Nathan and if I've done so, I aplogize. A moderator can remove this if they choose, no biggie. I only posted this because someone posted a response saying that it's his word against yours at this point. That person was correct, but not for this cowboy.

Good luck with your tool and I hope it all works out for the best.

David


p.s. No, I don't do this all the time or walk around with a recorder all the time. Only in certain situations where there is really something at stake and when it's justified. Not to scam or make trouble, that's not me. I just got tired of being lied to and losing way to much money to items I could no longer because they were defective or bad when I got them. Heck, I could use that money for gas.

[Nathan Conner]

You know what, David? That's not crazy at all, but it hadn't occurred to me. In fact, my iPhone is a recording device. I'll record the conversation I have with the machinery co today and let you guys know what it picks up...

Could be interesting.

[Keith Outten]

Nathan,

I believe your case is sound because the repair that was done is probably unsafe. The company who sold you the machine commissioned the repair so they are responsible if anyone is hurt due to a failure. I doubt that they want to suffer the financial burden from a law suit should the machine fail and anyone was hurt.

Take some pictures of the repair, send them to Powermatic and their parent company. They say they aren't responsible but it is their machine and their image will be damaged if the machine should fail. I think that you should also seek legal advice, possibly a simple phone call from an attorney might shake the store owner up enough that he may reconsider their position. Contact your state attorney's office you may find some support there or they may be able to steer you in the right direction.

Send copies of any and all documentation to the store manager or owner, he may eventually cave in if he thinks that you won't ever give up.

Call me, I can make a couple of phone calls for you that may help, there is a lot of clout here at The Creek.

.

.

[Steven Wilson]

Nathan, start an action with the BBB. At the very least that will start a paper trail. Next, consider small claims court. I'm not sure what the limits are in your state, in Minnesota it's $7500 which covers most things one would buy with disposable income. Before you forget sit down and construct a time line of events and what was said by whom. Continue to persue things with Powermatic. Try to find when was the machine sold and any history of claims/repairs on this machine. Also, show them pictures of the repair and get them to state in writting that a repair like that would never have been authorized. Emphasize to Powermatic that it would be in their best interest to condemn the repair now instead of being involved in an injury lawsuit when the planer self destructs. Contact your State's Attorney Generals office - time to get things started.

As for moving the machine, you'll have to suck it up and be prepared to properly pack and make the machine ready for moving. You'll probably be on the hook for local transport. Unless Powermatic agree's to remanufacture this machine I would not accept a repair.