12" Jointer/Planer - Convince me to pay more...

[Dave Avery]

All,

I'm finally going to buy a 12" jointer/planer - more for the jointer aspect than the planer. I can buy a Jet for ~$1,800 locally including sales tax. Hammer and Minimax machines are over twice as much shipped.

Based on the limited reviews of all of these machines, other than slightly better fences and quick-change cutter heads, I don't see much to justify the pricing differential.

So what else am I missing besides the fact that the Jet is made in China - which has good and bad factories - as does the US and elsewhere. Thanks in advance.....


-Dave

[Rob Diz]

Did you take a look at the Grizz as well. I think it did pretty well in the recent PWW article, along with the Jet.

[Steven Wilson]

I like the quick change cutterheads on the euro combo's. I'm sure you could find plenty of differences if you put the various machines head to head.

[Jim Becker]

The Euro machines are indeed heavier products, but I have to admit that the Jet and Grizzly options offer a LOT of machine for the money. You'd see the difference immediately if you had a typical Euro machine (MM, Hammer, etc) next to the Jet or Grizzly. I recently had the opportunity, for example, to take a close look at another local 'Creeker's Jet combo. Very nice. But a lot less cast iron and things like the fence attachment and adjustment were ratchet handled bolts, rather than the heavy mounting system my MM has. The tables are also thinner castings. The cutter head is not a quick-change Tersa or similar design. This is not a "good" vs "bad" situation...just "different"...and that affects cost. The sinking dollar is not helping, either, along with the increased cost of materials and transportation. This has had more effect on the Euro than Asian currency exchange if I'm not mistaken.

Choose what best meets your needs.

[Peter Quinn]

I looked at a Rojek 16" combo J/P at a show recently that caught my attention. The price point was around $4500, which is more than the jet but less than many euro 12" combos and far less than any other 16". The thing was HEAVY, the fence seemed well made, and it had a longer planner bed than most euro machines. It had the braking motor, no quick change cutter head (four straight knife head) but I think that was an option. Tersa knives are a nice option in a production setting where each minute of down time means lost revenue, but frankly in a small shop the cost hardly seems worth it to me. Those knives aren't cheap either, nor is the sharpening service. I'd love a 12" jointer but a 12" planer would be a compromise for me, so that 16" size is attractive.

The Rojek didn't have all the bells and whistles like power height adjustment and digital height memory, nor did it have an array of very expensive 80/20 aluminum extrusions for all occasions available, but it ran smooth and quiet and jointed wood flat. It struck me as bare bones euro for the budget minded woodworker.

I haven't used one so I can't speak to its longevity or durability, but its got me wanting to take a ride to Arkansas (which is a long drive from CT) to battle test one at the show room. They said if you call they have a buyers group where you can view a presents owners machine in operation if an owner exists locally. Many of the euro machine venders offer similar arrangements, so it might be worth going to see any machine in those price ranges before that kind of outlay is made.

[Greg Cole]

Hi Dave,
FWIW, the big bear combo offering is made or at least assembled in Germany IIRC.
Performance of both Jet and Griz seem to be on par with eachother and not having hands on either it's a tough call from where I sit. Change overs on both seem quick & simple.
The fence thing isn't "that" important other than edge jointing on wider boards & doesn't seem worth 2X the $. The wider your jointer the more prone to skewing the stock for face jointing.....
Agreed with Peter about knife change over time in a hobbyist setting. Shelix heads will be available sooner than later for any of these offerings if they aren't already in the works.
And QA is QA regardless of country of origin, good or bad.
How are the chairs for your cherry-cocobolo table coming?

Greg

[Don Abele]

Dave, I've been meaning to post a review of my Hammer A3-31 Jointer/Planer. Your question reminded me I should have done it already. I'll get something posted in the next day or two.

In the mean time, let me tell you that I really, really researched all my options for upgrading my jointer and planer (including buying separates again). I had some hands on time with the Jet J/P and based on reviews I think it's exactly the same as the Grizzly. I don't think you could go wrong buying one over the other.

Now, as Jim pointed out, when you compare those to the Euro models, like the Hammer there is a significant difference - both in build/quality and in price. The Hammer I bought retails for almost twice what the Grizzly (which is what I was leaning towards) does. I was lucky and saved a ton by buying before the Euro increase and I got a WW show floor model.

Now that I have it, I would happily pay FULL price for it - it's that significantly better than the Jet.

By far the most significant differences is in the table. I have photos I will post of the casting thickness and the webs on the bottom. They are night and day different. The Hammer is thick and heavy. Even with my 6" Jet with a Shelix head there's a slight vibration to it (more of a hum). The Hammer purrs because that thickness dampens any vibration completely.

There are other differences, like the fence. The Jet fence is kinda cheesy and the Grizzly fence is big. I also don't like that you have to remove them to switch to planer mode.

Speaking of planer...they are all about the same here, except for the planer table thickness and the fact that the Hammer has extensions you can add to lengthen the planer table.

A lot of points, and I'm sure you'll get more...but here's what I would consider the bottom line.

The Grizzly and Jet are essentially identical except for the helical head available for the Grizzly now (Jet should be releasing theirs soon) and the fence. Either one is an EXCELLENT machine. The Hammer is an AWESOME machine, but at a much higher price point. I don't own any Festools, but I can now understand the rage behind them after owning just one Euro Tool. Nothing I have ever used even compares to it. And while I paid more than what I wanted to for a J/P I know that I will own it for the rest of my life and never regret buying it.

I'll post my "in-depth" review of my Hammer soon.

Take care,

Doc

[Brad Shipton]

I own a 310 Hammer. It does have some nice add on type items. If you have plans to work with longer stock you can buy aluminum 12" outfeed or 31" extensions. I have used both to work with 8' and 10' long stock. The digital scale is very accurate and I really like this feature, but you could easily add a digi scale to any of the machines mentioned and accomplish the same. The quick change knives are great as mentioned by another and the other thing to keep in mind with a Tersa or the Felder quick change head is the blades are thrown away once dull (by most). The good sets I buy are $65 for a set (sharp two sides). Personally I dont think the thin blades (around 2mm) hold a sharp edge as long as the traditional blades, but I would not give up the quick change for anything. As to accuracy of the machines mentioned, I believe all of the those thrown out thus far are single post machines, so there is a very small flex in the table. The only difference amoungst these will be the quality control standards at the factory and the size of the posts. If you are used to a traditional heavy North American fence, well the aluminum ones are not as stiff. I think Hammer 310 version could be improved upon easily. Their 410 verison mounts at the center and will be much stiffer, but you also loose 16" floor space to allow the fence to fully open. The higher end four post Felders have much better fences. Dust collection is a bit better on the euro machines because they must comply with European regulations.

Good luck

[fRED mCnEILL]

"Now, as Jim pointed out, when you compare those to the Euro models, like the Hammer there is a significant difference - both in build/quality and in price. The Hammer I bought retails for almost twice what the Grizzly (which is what I was leaning towards) does. I was lucky and saved a ton by buying before the Euro increase and I got a WW show floor model."

I guess the bottom line here is "how big a board will it handle and how does it cut. Does a board coming off the Hammer feel smoother than that which comes off the Jet/griz.

The other consideration is how much use will it get. Obvoiusly a machine in commercial use daily should be more robust than for hobby use(even serious hobby use).

Fred Mc

[Ben West]

This is interesting to me, because I'm also considering a jointer/planer combo. I haven't put hands on any of the options, so my perceptions are based only what I've seen and read online and in catalogs.

I certainly can see where the euro machines have more bells and whistles and are more refined machines. Depth of cut gauges for the planer function, in particular, seem much better on the euro machines.

What I don't get are the comments about the euro machines being heavier and more solid. According to specs, the Hammer A31 is 660 lbs, the Griz is 675 lbs, and the Jet is 500 lbs. I don't see how the Hammer could be more solid or heavily built than the griz but actually weigh less. Obviously, there is a weight difference in the Jet. I'd be curious, from those that actually have used the Griz and a euro machine, about how they compare. If the euro machine is "more solid", what accounts for the weight similarities?

It's also interesting to me that Grizzly's "top-of-the-line" 16-inch jointer/planer combo, which is supposedly a German manufactured machine, actually weighs less (at 655 lbs) than their cheaper 12-inch machine. http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-J...-Planer/G0660X

[Dave Avery]

Hi Dave,
FWIW, the big bear combo offering is made or at least assembled in Germany IIRC.
Performance of both Jet and Griz seem to be on par with eachother and not having hands on either it's a tough call from where I sit. Change overs on both seem quick & simple.
The fence thing isn't "that" important other than edge jointing on wider boards & doesn't seem worth 2X the $. The wider your jointer the more prone to skewing the stock for face jointing.....
Agreed with Peter about knife change over time in a hobbyist setting. Shelix heads will be available sooner than later for any of these offerings if they aren't already in the works.
And QA is QA regardless of country of origin, good or bad.
How are the chairs for your cherry-cocobolo table coming?

Greg

Hi Greg,

Amazing you remember my chairs. Slowly is the answer - I got some wide curly cherry for the backs of the chairs that I don't want to rip for jointing - thus the search for a 12" J/P. Thanks for asking. Best. Dave.

[Dave Avery]

This is interesting to me, because I'm also considering a jointer/planer combo. I haven't put hands on any of the options, so my perceptions are based only what I've seen and read online and in catalogs.

I certainly can see where the euro machines have more bells and whistles and are more refined machines. Depth of cut gauges for the planer function, in particular, seem much better on the euro machines.

What I don't get are the comments about the euro machines being heavier and more solid. According to specs, the Hammer A31 is 660 lbs, the Griz is 675 lbs, and the Jet is 500 lbs. I don't see how the Hammer could be more solid or heavily built than the griz but actually weigh less. Obviously, there is a weight difference in the Jet. I'd be curious, from those that actually have used the Griz and a euro machine, about how they compare. If the euro machine is "more solid", what accounts for the weight similarities?

It's also interesting to me that Grizzly's "top-of-the-line" 16-inch jointer/planer combo, which is supposedly a German manufactured machine, actually weighs less (at 655 lbs) than their cheaper 12-inch machine. http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-J...-Planer/G0660X

Ben,

I was just about the check the weight specs on all the machines and then I saw your post. The Grizzly has a 5hp motor which may account for some of the weight difference, but it can't be a lot...... hmmmm

[Dave Avery]

Not sure I'm any closer to a decision, but I certainly appreciate everone taking the time to replay.

On an unrelated note, it looks like I just missed out on a used Minimax FS31..... for $400......

[Narayan Nayar]

Dave, I've got the same machine Don has.

Do yourself a favor and find some way to see these machines in person. I didn't get to see the Grizzly, but I did see the Jet. And the Hammer I saw--it was a version from the early 90s with teal paint.

And I went with the Hammer.

Even if you go with the Griz or the Jet, $2k+ is a lot of scratch, so even if you have to drive a bit, see if you can't find at least two of these machines to compare. Call a salesperson at Felder and see if they can hook you up with a local owner. They sent me a sales packet that had a DVD which helped, but I was still on the fence (no pun intended) until I saw the unit (thanks Jamie Buxton!).

[Dave Avery]

All,

Well, I bought the Jet. Boiled down to value..... while I'm willing to accept that Hammer and Minimax are better machines, they aren't $2,000K better - at least from my perspective.

I managed to get the Jet for $1,550 delivered to my door on Ebay using Buy-it-Now in conjunction with a Microsoft live search engine discount - plus a $100 Paypal discount.

Thanks for all your advice. I'll let you know how I like the Jet. Best. Dave.