It turns out that US shipping on the Joint Maker Pro is $59. Although it is not mentioned on the Bridge City web site, the JMP is an exception to their usual policy of free shipping on orders over $500.Originally Posted by John Gornall
NO
YES
On the Fence <maybe>
Yes, if the price was <$500
Member
It turns out that US shipping on the Joint Maker Pro is $59. Although it is not mentioned on the Bridge City web site, the JMP is an exception to their usual policy of free shipping on orders over $500.
Member
It seems many of us have found -- or been led to -- the belief that a "perfect joint" is the pinnacle of our craft. Certainly, it's important, but not the Holy Grail. Many of the classic pieces now in museums have dovetails that we would find coarse and objectionable -- when viewed strictly by themselves. This over-simplification of what's important causes us often to diverge from the pursuit of aesthetic beauty as evidenced in the entire piece of cabinetwork -- warts and all. And many, if not most, of the toolmakers in business today would be very reluctant to tell you otherwise. They prosper when they separate you from your money. That's cool; that's capitalism...
I'm sorry you thought I misinterpreted your comments, but when I read the "...quality of a hand tool cut is directly proportional to the skill of the craftsman, this would save hours of tweaking and assembly time. It would improve the quality of my pieces because the joinery would be far better than it is now..." I made the assumption that you meant it would enhance the use of hand tools. My bad...
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. Bertrand Russell
Guest
Now there's a real difference in the jmp assessment. I see the jmp as one big, expensive jig. There's nothing it does that I can't now do by hand with Japanese saws. I see its value in small piece making/manufacture. For example, making kumiko for shoji is a drudge after a few pieces; and it appears that the jmp could be used to advantage on that type project.
Pam
Member
I always got a laugh from this joke.
I too agree that much of the maladies of American businesses are due management at it's worst.
A man in a hot air balloon realised he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted,
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an
hour ago, but I don't know where I am".
The woman below replied,
"You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the
ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."
"You must be in the union", said the balloonist.
"I am", replied the woman, "How did you know"?
"Well", answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technical but I've no idea what to make of your information and the fact is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip."
The woman below responded, "You must be in Management".
"I am", replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's all my fault."
I could cry for the time I've wasted, but thats a waste of time and tears.
Member
When I said that The JMP would "increase the quality of my joinery" I was not even thinking about how the joints would look. I was only thinking about how easily the joints would fit together. I have no problem with the look of any hand cut joinery, what I dislike is the sometimes tedious and always inefficiet need to tweek my joints by hand.
When I wrote my original comment I was also thinking about tenons more than dovetails. currently when I cut a tenon by hand the shoulders will all look fine but there is inevitably something wrong with one or more of the tenon cheeks that requires careful tweeking. There also always seems to be something that I miss, even with a dry fit, that causes my glue ups to be a bear.
The "imporoved quality of cut" was only ment as a comment about being able to work more efficiently, not as comment about my joints being more visually appealing.
Member
Mike,
I appreciate your comments...and totally understand them. The issues that have been raised, though, are worth discussing because they go to the root of what we consider...or have been told...is acceptable joinery. What I resist is the notion that the only thing standing between us and a successful piece of cabinetry is a jig, tool, whatsit or widget. You may make the conscious decision to use a certain tool to affect various efficiencies, but in the end, craftsmanship is the link between the mind of the artist and the execution of his hand.
My apologies for being rather intense about this subject...
Allan
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. Bertrand Russell
Member
Allen I couldn't agree with you more in regard to craftsmanship. The tools we use, whether they are power tools or hand tools, will always reflect our skill, talent, and imagination. Some things, such as a power tool, the JMP, or Computer program like Sketch Up or CAD, can be used compensate for weakness in a particular area, such as the the execution or the design of a project. The tools could allow a person to show utilize thier imagination that they couldn't before. However, no too can over come a persons lack of imagination or talent.
I see as JMP as a tool that can be used to by someone to tap their tallent and imagination in ways that will require them to sell their souls to the devils of entirely machine cut joinery. The JMP can only start a wide variety of joiner such as half blind and full bind dovetails of the femal part of a small sliding dovetal. These will all have to be finished using chisels and other hand tools, which I think is good. Router jigs such as the wood-rat, router boss, the Leigh jigs, or the JDS multi-router that many people turn to to improve their efficiency eliminate any need for hand tooling, which is not good.
I agree that it will probably be relegated to being a niche tool or one for wealthy hobbiest's with GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). However, I still wonder why there is no love for this tool. 5 1/2% pecent of resondants to the poll would buy it at the current price while But 68% of respondents wouldn't buy it at any price. I know that there are a lot of people who would not buy this tool for one reason or another but really, 68%?
Guest
I don't know how the jmp will cure all your tenon fit problems, not even sure how deep it will allow you to cut; so it may do nothing much for regular sized tenon cheeks.
Pam
Guest
I don't see how SU/CAD does any of this. Mainly it allows one to change the design without redrawing everything. Now, true, it's easier to draw a straight line in SU/CAD; but neither architecture nor furniture design requires straight lines until the final design document.
Pam
Member
I may have been wrong to mention CAD. I am sorry. In regard to how SU can help with design and execution I will quote Tim Killen of Fine Woodworking's "Design. Click. Build." Blog. In his June 9, 2007 entry he says:
The use of SketchUp is critical to the success of the program. This tool gives me confidence in the design details, that pieces (if built to plan) will successfully assemble into a workable bench. Helping to ensure building to plan, SketchUp makes it easy to create full-size templates which are used for accurate and reapeatable markup of lumber. I've found from experience in other school project activities that the templates increase chances that components will be accurately fabricated.
The blog has a lot of wonderful examples of how SU can be used to assist in the design/build process.
The other thing is my interest I am interested in the JMP not because I am unhappy with the quality of my work, I am happy with it. I am interested in it because of the potential of increased efficeincy. That is it, efficiency. Can it be used for everything? No, it can't. I would not want to use it for everything either.
Last edited by mike rawl; 09-04-2008 at 6:02 AM.
Member
Mike,
I'm sure most of the folks feel like there's not much the JMP can do that they can't already accomplish with a saw and chisel -- not as cleanly, perhaps, or quickly -- but acceptably well (within one's standard of what is acceptable, of course).
I've not learned to use Sketchup either, even though it seems interesting enough. I rely on pencil sketches of critical components to work out placement, etc., but don't typically use measurements (except maybe for gross cuts or roughing out). Parts, pieces are cut to fit as necessary. I just finished a bookshelf for my granddaughter, and when her mother asked how large it was, I had to guess! (I was off by several inches in every direction!)HAHA! The only time I actually measured the case was to determine the widths of the backboards.
Allan
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. Bertrand Russell
Member
I have tried to use it but I am not the biggest fan of computers and am have been frustrated by my half-hearted attempts to learn it. Because other people do use it and may feel that SU helps them make better projects I continue to be interested in it. I was just trying to use it as another example of tool that could help a woodworker become more productive or efficient and, when used by the right people, more creative.
Member
I don't use SU either, but then I trained as a draftsman back in the early seventies, so if I need a detailed and neat drawing, then I do it on paper with pencils and such. Guess that makes me a real neander, though usually I just do a sketch and after I work out the dimensions note them down and go to work like Allen.
When you think of it though how many corded guys have a Liegh Jig that cost well past $500 including accessories. so they can maybe make dovetails two or three times a year?
I would be willing to bet BCT have some market segments in mind we have not yet considered. Also the example that Pam gave above is a good one, I watched a wood wright's shop episode that showed a guy who was into that and I could see if you did shoji a lot say two or three times a year it would be a godsend.
I said no I would not buy it, but then I won't buy a LN number 8 for $400 dollars either, but that is just me.
Craftsmanship is the skill employed in making a thing properly, and a good craftsman is one who has complete mastery over his tools and material, and who uses them with skill and honesty.
N. W. Kay
Member
I would always like to find a way to work more efficiently. The appeal of the JMP, for me, is in its versatility and its potential to improve my efficiency.
When I first started woodworking I had cheap tools and little skill. My joints were terrible and they always needed to be cleand up and tweaked. After tweeking I would have a tenon, dove tail, mortise, etc. that I was more than happy with, but it was slow going. After buying better saws I was able to cut more accurately, which happened to increase my efficiency as well.
In regard to tenons, when I started woodwoking I tweaked them with a chisel and a file and it was a pain. I eventually bought a shoulder plane. His helped to speed up my tweaking, but it is not always the best tool. I later bought a router plane and now think the only way I can improve my overall efficency is by not needing to tweak at all.
Practice has made me a better woodworker and has hepled to improve my efficiency but there is still room for improvement. Every time I have bought a tool I tried to buy the highst quality tool that I could. Almost all the tools that I have bought have made major contributions to the quality and efficiency of my work.
The one exception is a set of expensive Japanese chisels. While great tools that I am priveledged to own, It was not as smart a purchase as the saws or specialty planes were. While I know that there are poeple who would disagree with me, I don't think there is anything that I can do with these tools that I couldn't do with my marples. They cost about $500 bucks too, which was at least 10 times as much.
Last edited by mike rawl; 09-05-2008 at 2:50 AM.
Guest
I couldn't agree more. The process of tweaking is lengthy, all that measuring and testing for fit; so I go for it on every cut. However, if you stop practicing, you won't get better, just more dependent.
Pam
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