I agree, and I have no doubt people will buy it. Actually, I think there is a segment of the population that will pay whatever it costs to get quality.
NO
YES
On the Fence <maybe>
Yes, if the price was <$500
Member
I agree, and I have no doubt people will buy it. Actually, I think there is a segment of the population that will pay whatever it costs to get quality.
Guest
Yes, certainly true for the last 10 years or so, but not for the first 20 of this decimation. And I'd bet, though I don't know, that it was the promise of free trade with cheap labor that allowed those in charge to kill wages. I'll quote one number I heard lately, that if employee wages had kept pace with executive pay, the average worker would now make $500,000 per annum.Originally Posted by Will Blick
Pam
Guest
I don't want a republican vs democrat political discussion either, but the premise of this thread is political by nature, rich vs poor, whether we like it or not. I think most people immigrate here to get rich, and let's face it, I'd much rather be poor here than most anywhere else.John, your German friend is nutso. I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but anyone who thinks business competition is bad better explain why so many people in the world are dying to get into the US. You should have the discussion in 30 years and see where Europe stands, next to the Americas and Asia.
Also, we are such a huge economy that we can surely drag everyone down with us, like some great sucking machine. Doesn't make us the better system. Besides, once we get universal health care, many pressures on the GM's of the world will decrease, to say nothing of the pressures on the GM workers.
Pam
Member
Funny how the imports are generally a bit more expensive these days, a bitmore reliable, and yet they still turn a profit. Manufacturers could have done more over the years to support their dealers so that they could make more than a few hundred dollars on a car sale.
Yeah the workers have had a great package but the management dictated the designs and materials then allowed their cars to be sold unprofitably.
I've seen alot of lake houses in Northern Michigan owned by auto execs and NONE owned by hourly employees.
Rant off.
I could cry for the time I've wasted, but thats a waste of time and tears.
In Memoriam
Cant post a direct link to another forum but if you check John Economaki's blog http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2008/07/, there is a link to Roger Savatteri's FOG review after 2 days at BCTW. In it, one of the posts in the thread has a section on some of the reasons the cost is so high and IIRC it's primarily the cost of materials and machining. Even as high as it is, I dont get the sense there's a huge profit margin there.
Use the fence Luke
Guest
GM and Ford profit approximately $15,000 for each pickup truck and suv. Don't know if that's gross, net, after taxes, but it's still a big chunk of change.
Pam
In Memoriam
While at the same time taking a bath or making minimal profit on their small cars just so they can meet CAFE standards and compete with the Japanese cars. Now that gas is $4 a gallon and nobody's buying trucks and SUVs, things aren't looking quite so profitable.
Member
Sorry for getting off topic.
Imagine what the value of a JMP will be in 100 years when there are only hundreds known in existence anymore and people are saying "They just don't build things like this anymore."
Bridge City doesn't build tools for the masses. I think the JMP fits very nicely into the niche market they exist in. That they pursued development of this in the first place is really neat. How many companies build for the few?
I could cry for the time I've wasted, but thats a waste of time and tears.
[OP]
Contributor
John, I fully agree...and I don't think anyone is mocking the effort on behalf of BCT. Companies like this are the greatest thing for many of us ww's. I have bought a lot of high quality tools from BCT and certainly want them to be around for a long time. This poll was nothing more than a probe of the creekers position on the JMP usefulness vs. its price...
I can't seem to get off the fence :-)
Guest
Yes, I know that, but it makes their situation even worse. Think how many more suv's/pickups might have been sold at a $7500 profit. Why can't they make small cars as cheaply and with as high a quality as the Japanese? Sure, part of it is health care (you can probably guess my solution for this) and pensions; but pensions were negotiated in exchange for contemporary wages. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda assemble cars in the US and handily sell them. I think this is American management at its worst, but they're so hide bound by some nostalgia for what used to be that they simply can't think outside that box. They are as incompetent as those at FEMA who "managed" Katrina. And in both cases, where are the female managers?
As to the price of BCT tools, they are clearly intended for the wealthy among us. I've been in the position to consider $1000 insignificant, not now, but when my company was still in business. I understand the decision process. Now I'm retired due to 9/11 (it killed my small business clients, made them too wary to purchase new software), no social security and no medicare; so it's out of the question to buy a $1000 hand saw. What I do see myself doing, because it looks pretty neat, is making a version from an old contractor saw with one of my Japanese saws mounted. That's a no cost effort, right up my alley financially.
Pam
Member
I'm not rich but I don't mind paying a bit more for made in USA goods. Not that I'm about to get the Joint Maker Pro!
Member
Hi everyone, I am a long time lurker, first time commenter. I can’t understand why there isn’t more love for the JMP. It is an exciting tool and while expensive, in not necessarily overpriced as seems to be the consensus. When I look at the JMP I see a tool that has the potential of saving a woodworker a lot of money in the long run. Not only that I see it as one of the few tools that has the potential of making me, or most people, a better woodworker.
One the financial side, if I had the JMP I would be less likely to accumulate the vast collection of boutique tools and specialty tools that many of the Neander’s are partial too and have probably spent thousands on. I would also be less likely to buy expensive jigs and fixtures for the table saw router because the JMP can do everything they can when it comes to dovetails, angled tenons, etc. I If it can’t I can probably use the JMP to make a jig that will do what I need.
As a woodworker, it will allow to work far more efficiently. I could cut tenons and dovetails that would require little, if any, clean up. Since quality of f a hand tools cutl is directly proportional to the skill of the craftsman, this would save hours of tweaking and assembly time.[FONT='Ｍ] [/FONT]It would improves the quality of my pieces because the joinery would be far better than it is now and it would glue up easier too.. This would allow me to do more finishing prior to assembly saving even more time.
As a craftsman, the ability to make accurate cuts will not only improve the quality of the final product but will also make it more interesting. Difficult joints that I would not dare make now, such as a three way miter, or the angled tenons for chair making, are now easily within reach. Sliding dovetails for drawer backs are now an appealing hand tool option as well. I see the JMP as complimenting and encouraging hand tool work of all kinds, not detracting from it.
The biggest argument that I do not understand is the one about safety. I work as safely as I can but I have still turned my thumb into hamburger on a table and sliced off a chunk of a finger with a band saw. I have also cut my self with hand saws many times. The hand saw cuts are by far the better ones to get if you are going to get cut. The cut would be less severe, cleaner, and heal quicker than a table saw or band saw cut. Also for the cuts I would be using the JPM for, I think I would be less likely to cut myself on it than if I was doing something similar on the table saw or the band saw.
I don’t see the JMP as a niche tool. I see it as an indispensible tool for anyone who wants to make the best furniture that they can. If you really think about the JMP and compare it to all the other expensive tools you own and rarely use, whether it be plane, chisel, or jig, it may not really be that expensive. I just don’t understand why there isn’t more love for this great tool.
In Memoriam
No argument there.
Member
I have a difficult time accepting that this tool enhances "hand tool work". I guess the new standard for craftsmanship is increasing tolerances and accuracy by diminishing the opportunity for human error -- but applying just enough physical labor to the process to qualify it as "hand made". Ludicrous.
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. Bertrand Russell
Member
No where in my previous post did I use the word "enhance". I said that it could "compliment and encourage" hand work. By this I mean that people who have this tool will use it for joints that the previously would have only attempted with a variety of expensive table saw or router jigs. While basic cuts would be made with the JMP, a user will need to go back to other tools, such as their chisels and saws to clean out the wast. In this way it "encourages" as well as "compliments" had tool use tool use.
I did not linger on increasing "tolerances and accuracy" as being a standard of craftsmanship. I mentioned it in regard to efficiency. A wood worker who cuts cleanly cuts efficiently. My comment on craftsmanship is that it would encourage a would worker to do different types of joints that they currently rely on power tools and expensive jigs to make, if they bother to make them at all.
I appreciate the romantic notion of an old world craftsman and I think that it is and ideal that all wood workers should strive for. However, I am not one who believes that the hardest way is the best way. I believe whatever will allow a person to make the best furniture they can is the best way.
As to the comment made about keeping the minimum amount of physical labor to the process to qualify as "hand made", well... How about the next time you have a tailor make a suit for you how about you insist that he uses a needle and tread instead of a sewing machine. Same deal with some nice "hand crafted" shoes. Why does "hand made" furniture need to be held to a completely different standard than everything that we all appreciate as being "hand made"? That is a topic for a different thread, if there isn't one already.
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