Festool for Beginning Woodworking?

[Mike Goetzke]

As a beginner I would suggest you start out simple to see if you really like the hobby. I remember I started as a teenager with a circular saw and a router. I now have all the big time tools I can fit in my garage/shop including a nice cabinet saw. I also purchased an EZ guide rail system for breaking down plywood sheets and really like it.

I think you are best off starting with a rail system be it Festool or Eurekazone and build from there.

Mike

Mike

[Alan Wong]

Thanks for all the great responses guys.

So experience, this college level class that goes over all hand tools and machinery, as well has on-hand experience with them all. So all the basic tools I've used or will have a chance to use, and use them safely throughly the next couple months. We have projects with strictly hand tools as well has machine tools.

I am learning more toward power/machine tools compared to making stuff with hand tools. Re-sale value of the festool seems to be very high which is a plus as well.

Do they have sales or is there a good place to buy them from?

-Alan

[John Seiffer]

Alan,
Let me add my experience which is just that. I don't mean to ignite any religious wars.

Quality tools vs cheap tools. I actually believe there is a place for both. The advantage of quality tools is that they are more precise, and easy to adjust to make repeatable cuts. And they last longer and usually feel better when you're using them. This is more important to production shops than a hobbyist. The actual cutting is done by the blade so a good blade in a cheap tool will usually do better than the other way.

Good blades won't compensate for motors that are out of wack but in my experience with cheap tools I haven't found that to be a problem.

Cheap tools are great if you don't think you'll use it a lot or just want play around before you make a big commitment. I have a really cheap (like $20) trim router. Is it a piece of garbage? yes. Do I still use it once in a while? yes. Is it my main router? no but it is my only trim router. For me it was worth the money.

Same with a used 10" band saw I got for $50. Sears has a nice (cheap) one for around $150 (I wish I'd gotten that one). I'm amazed how much I use it. If you want to make craft style furniture with curves, a band saw is great.

And a small band saw is not hard to move a year down the road. Even a big one is easier to move than a table saw.

The EZ Guide by Eurekazone.com is worth comparing to Festool. I have one and it's indispensible for sheet goods. I think you're able to start cheaper and build up the system. The EZ power bench can be used as a work bench as well. The EZ system is a bit more do-it-yourself but there's plenty of advice in the forums.

Folks who've used both EZ and Festool usually have good things to say about each.

I don't think I'd give up my table saw but if I were starting out now I'd certainly buy the EZ Guide and bench combo first and see if I could get away with out one.

If you're mostly using sheet goods or small lumber you can get away without a planer or jointer. You'll pay a bit more for lumber - that's the trade off. A good saw guide (or even router) can be made to replace an edge jointer (though not a face jointer). If you're doing things where you glue up a lot of lumber to make table tops etc then you might want the jointer and planer.

Good luck and have fun!!

[Eric DeSilva]

I'll throw out an odd point of view... Why not get a TS? Even if you don't want to move it, might be worth 10 minutes thinking about buying a decent used saw on craigslist, since chances are you will be able to sell it for nearly what you paid when and if you move. Say you buy it for $750 today, sell it for $700 a year from now. You have effectively rented it for a year for $50. Might be worth considering. As long as you aren't buying new, the depreciation on nice tools isn't really that bad. I've bought a number of largish machines on CL--cabinet TS, 14" BS, 8" jointer, 20" planer, 3HP shaper, power feeder. I still peruse the ads regularly, and I'm pretty confident that I could price the gear for a quick sale and still recover everything I've paid. Not bad at all, but I got very lucky on some of the tools.

Disclaimer. I walked down the Festool slope... They make very nice, very accurate, very well thought out tools with excellent dust collection capabilities. They are not the only ones that make very nice tools. They are not the only ones that make very accurate tools. They are not the only ones who make tools with excellent dust collection. The combination, however, is pretty stunning. I've *never* had buyers remorse after picking up another green machine. It does get expensive, however. I started with a CT-22 vac, TS55 and some rails to break down sheet goods. Since then, the german overlords have probably cashed another $4K in checks of mine.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I submit that you don't pay some one else to make you a bench.
It's a lot cheaper to make your own - and you can make as big a fuss over the construction and details ( or not) however you please.

I's start out with a Kiln dried 2*4 layup the the top if you wanted sturdy and cheap. Then true that flat with a router bridge.


Moving a cabinet saw isn't a big deal so long as you are willing to disassemble it Or don't have to because it's already on the ground level floor.

[Alan Wong]

I'm hoping to square up my stock at my local college for a while so I can get by w/o a jointer/planer.

I did also think of getting a decent bandsaw, since is dosn't take up as much space as a table saw. Maybe a grizzly as I've read good reviews, or a laguna, since their HQ is located in Irivne, CA (same city i live in). These machines weigh several hundred pounds, which sounds like a chore to move. Is resale high on these products, easy to find buyers? I don't mind losing a couple hundred over a year but 50% resale would be painful.

So I am open to still getting a TS or a BS (more likely since space is an issue), just hard to choose which way to go.

-Alan

[Geoff Barry]

Alan,

Each of us answers from our own experience, which, in turn, is shaped by our own habits, talents, etc. I'm a 'beginner' -- while I've made some furniture (mainly coffee/end tables and bookcases) over the last five years or so (and just built an 8x10 shed), and I have made the transition to buying rough lumber, I do not have a lot of time or money to devote to woodworking, so my take on this is defiitely that of an amateur.

Festool stuff is nice. Very nice. Just well-made. However, unless you are working for hours every day with it, you have to decide if it is worth the premium. For example, when the Kapex was first announced, a lot of peole said - who whould by a $1300 SCMS? One of our members, Per Swenson, said "I would. I work on-site, and have to spend a lot of time cleaning up each day. If it has effective dust collection, and cuts accurately, it is worth it to me." (Sorry, Per - a paraphrase at best, but I believe it captures your point). I, on the other hand, use a 10" Delta CMS (non-slider) I got as Costco for $67.97. When you look at what Per builds, at what I build, it becomes clear that I could not build what Per builds even with a $1300 SCMS, and, in a opposite sense, Per could not build what I build even if he used my cheap saw Were I to start building furniture on a daily basis (and presumably get a lot better), my calculus might change, however.

Having said that, it is true you don't want to waste money on cheap tools. They will be inaccurate, and you will become irritated with them. But is there anything you intend to do with a Festool guided system that you could not do with a regular circular saw and a straight edge? I break down sheet goods with a $50 skilsaw and an eight-foot steel stud (a couple of dollars). For my occasional use, it works fine, and is cost effective. If I did it all the time, then a Festool would be more attractive. (Note that I'm not saying get a $50 skilsaw -- if it breaks, I'd replace it with a porter cable or hitachi or somesuch saw in the $100-120 range. But it works "well enough")

As someone pointed out above, don't forget that Craigslist is your friend. You can pretty much always find a useable contractor's saw for around $150-200, and sell it for the same in a year or two when you move. I use a $100 craftsman contractor saw I bought at a garage sale. I spent almost as much on the blade -- it is the blade that cuts, so use good ones.

[Peter Quadarella]

Everybody knows Laguna and Grizzly and they will be bought up relatively quickly if they are in decent shape and a few hundred cheaper than a new one. I love the versatility and footprint of a bandsaw.

Regarding hand tools and power tools; ultimately you will probably end up needing some of each - for those final fits and minor corrections, hand tools often much quicker and simpler. No amount of practice in using them will go to waste even if you have the full complement of power tools.

[Jim Becker]

TDo they have sales or is there a good place to buy them from?

No "sales", unfortunately, but some nice bundles. Contact 'Creeker Bob Marino who is one of the best folks on the planet to learn about Festool and purchase from. IMHO, of course...

[Dan Clark]

Alan,

I agree with the other members who commented on tool quality. If you buy cheap tools, you will regret it. It's not that you can't good tools at lower cost, but... As a beginner it's very difficult to determine what is decent at a good price and what is low-priced junk.

As you can see from my signature, I have a few Festools. So I'm probably biased. Take what I say with a grain of salt...

Regarding "traditional" power tools, I think are there are some tools that you will want to get - a thickness planer, a jointer (or a sled for your thickness planer), a band saw, and a router table. Also, a decent bench drill press could be useful for furniture. You can use a good jigsaw (some of the Bosch or the Festool jigsaws) in place of a band saw for some things and you can use a hand-held decent router for some things. But a planer, jointer, band saw, and router table provide you with lot's of flexibility.

Regarding a table saw, I don't have one. I've thought about it, but haven't found a situation where my Festool saws (TS55 and Trion D-Handle) or my Japanese pull saws couldn't deal with. The only places where I think a table saw would be significantly better is if you were repeat-cutting LOTs of wood or if ripping a fair amount of small, narrow wood.

Regarding Festool vs EZ... EZ makes good rails and accessories. However, they don't make power tools. So you will have to buy the tools and integrate them into an overall system. For example, you'll need to get a good quality circular saw to get good results.

IF you already have a good quality saw and other accoutrements, then the EZ system makes sense. If you don't have these, then a big question is, do you want to integrate your own system?

One advantage of Festool is that they make a tool system. Their vacs work with almost all Festool power tools. (Sorry, no dust collection on their drills! ) The Festool saws and most of their other tools have dust collection built it. The Festool saws' base plates are designed to work with their guide rail system. Other tools like the jig saws and routers have accessories to allow them to be used with their guide rails. The guide rails can be attached to their MFT's. The MFTs can be used with a bunch of Festool-made clamps and accessories. And almost all of their tools come in an integrated system of storage containers called Systainers.

Are Festool tools absolutely perfect? No, of course not. Only an idiot would believe that any tool or system is perfect. But the tools are high quality and reliable, it works, and most importantly, the Festool system is already integrated. Part of the reason the Festool fanciers like Festool is that we spend more time being productive and less time trying to make our tools work.

The downside of Festool? Cost. They are spendy. I like to think of TANSTFL (There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch!)

Good luck with you decision.

Regards,

Dan.

[Jim Becker]

Dino, I think that Dan probably just meant you don't manufacture the power tools originally. It's absolutely true that you do modify/extend/enhance tools that are well suited to the EZ system components that you do design, build and sell. The word "sell" was an unfortunate term given the ability you have to resell is there and in play. And that's an excellent business approach.

[Burt Waddell]

The term "Quality tools" seems to be used a lot in this thread. I sense that some of the posters are trying to say that if it isn't Festool, it isn't a quality tool.

I own a Festool circular saw and MFT. The saw is covered in dust and MFT serves as a junk holder. I fail to see all of the excitement about the festool equipment. I use my Hilti saw and EZ rail systems on a daily basis.

We often hear of the Festool System and others refer to the "Slippery slope". I think these are one in the same. You see the Festool TS 55 is designed with limited power - 10 amps. Now that will cut any wood IF you have the correct blade. In a recent post by Dan Clark on another forum, he seemed to be saying that you couldn't cut plywood with a rough cut blade because it would damage the saw. You need the "system" - the correct length rail, the correct blade, and then your saw can cut.

As for quality tools, most of us, would define these as bosch, Makita, PC, DeWalt, Milwaukee etc. Most of these tools are highly adequate to do whatever we need to have done.

When we elevate to the high end Hilti ( and for some people Festool), we are in a league that could be called Luxury Tools. Performance is better than the quality tools but not enough for most to justify it. They do have more bells and whistles. Now if you are using them daily like I do the Hilti's or Money is no object, then the Luxury tools are great.

Burt

[Mike Heidrick]

A friend I work with has no shop. He owns a 12" SCMS and the 6 tool bag of Dewalt 18V power tools. He bought a house that needed a lot of work. He decided he wanted to build some shelves and cabinets (lots of 3/4" oak and maple sheets being cut) for the house. He purchased a TS55/CT22 saw/vac combo set and the OF1400 router. Also he bought a 150/3EQ sander (convinced me to get one and they are great) and I think one extra 55" guide. Man he loves them and has built his projects. They store easily (compared to owning a shop full of tools) and recently they added some more wands to the vac to help clean up their house more. It does work for him!!

I think Festool and EZ are great ideas. Eventually he may build a building for a small shop but for now Festool is his answer to the tools he needs.

[Peter Pedisich]

Like others have said, Makita, PC, Milwaukee, Bosch & DeWalt are all certainly good enough for any task. In fact, some of them are great.

At the bottom of the price range is some junk, and some surprisingly good tools. Hard to know when it will be the good and not junk.

In the middle upper range (see brands above) there are mostly decent, often very good, and occasionaly brilliant tools.

In the top range (Festool, Hilti, Mafell) are mostly excellent, sometimes average, and occasionally disappointing tools.

I bought a Festool saw/rail combo a few years back and I love it, but after having it a while I got a EZ rail and base for an older Bosch CS I already had to use on site, and it gives me the same great results! I could have saved a lot of money and still had a quality product. So if you have a circular saw already, you should try a beginner set from EZ, you'll be impressed.

Don't ever let tool brand get in the way of enjoying woodworking!

[Bob Marino]

The term "Quality tools" seems to be used a lot in this thread. I sense that some of the posters are trying to say that if it isn't Festool, it isn't a quality tool.

I own a Festool circular saw and MFT. The saw is covered in dust and MFT serves as a junk holder. I fail to see all of the excitement about the festool equipment. I use my Hilti saw and EZ rail systems on a daily basis.

We often hear of the Festool System and others refer to the "Slippery slope". I think these are one in the same. You see the Festool TS 55 is designed with limited power - 10 amps. Now that will cut any wood IF you have the correct blade. In a recent post by Dan Clark on another forum, he seemed to be saying that you couldn't cut plywood with a rough cut blade because it would damage the saw. You need the "system" - the correct length rail, the correct blade, and then your saw can cut.

As for quality tools, most of us, would define these as bosch, Makita, PC, DeWalt, Milwaukee etc. Most of these tools are highly adequate to do whatever we need to have done.

When we elevate to the high end Hilti ( and for some people Festool), we are in a league that could be called Luxury Tools. Performance is better than the quality tools but not enough for most to justify it. They do have more bells and whistles. Now if you are using them daily like I do the Hilti's or Money is no object, then the Luxury tools are great.

Burt

Burt,

Question for you. If your TS 55 and MFT are gathering dust, why haven't you availed yourself of Festool's 30 day money back guarantee? Or if that time has long since passed, why not sell it on the Creek, Ebay, Craigs List or any other WW forum? You'd be surpised how quickly they'd sell and how well they command a good price. There just aren't many up for sale.
I have my own opinions regarding why you haven't, but that's another matter.
Anyhow, I am in total agreement with those who say Festool tools aren't the only high quality tools available - Bosch, Hilti, Makita, Milwaukee come quickly to mind.
Having said all that, I have been selling Festool tools for better than 6 years, and have sold several hundred ATF and TS 55, 65 and 75 saws as well as probably a couple of hundred MFT'S. I can count one hand the number of the saws and MFT's returned. That's the truth. That says more to me than ads/hype/competetor's comments or whatever.

Bob