Your Thoughts on a New Shop Building

["Jacob Robinson"]

My dad told me that when I turned twenty and proved a little thriftyness with my own money that he would consider a shop for me. Well, in March I'll be 20 so with a little help from my dad (in the way of a cosigner) we will break ground in the spring!!

I'm looking right now at a 30x40 polebuilding, I got a price of a kit as follows:

**--30x40x10
**--1- 36" man door
**--2 other openings to be namde later (probably 2 10x8 overhead doors)
**--1' overhang on four sides
**--1/2" thermoguard insulation for ceiling and walls

$8450 delivered (does not include price of overhead doors, floor, or labor)

Cost of floor estimated at $2500 plus gravel

My dad is wanting to have it built, but I'd rather build it ourselves, they'll put it up for about $2000 (I wouldn't say I have the knowledge (as of now) to do it myself but I do have the braun, on the other hand my granpa is the opposite, Brains but not the braun anymore. I keep telling my dad that knowledge is priceless.

On to insulation, the 1/2" is quoted to give an R-factor of close to 4 (not near enough I think) so what is the best route to go for a pole building?? Just tonight I went dumpster diving for about 30 4'x8'x2.25" thick styrofoam sheets (worth using or not??

One more thing I know it will be more expensive but should I look at doing a shingled roof instead of metal, I've never put metal on but layed a couple hundred square of shingles in my day, Ive heard metal will sweat and eventually drip


Sorry for the wordy post>

[John Keeton]

Jacob, if you have the time and machinery, doing the building yourself would be a neat project. But, you need to consider whether you have all the equipment needed.

It is easier to do the slab first, whether you set the posts in the ground or set anchors in the concrete for the posts. Setting trusses is easier with a backhoe or tractor with a front loader to lift them up, etc. So, make sure that you think through the process before you start.

I would recommend you close off a portion of the building for the shop, and leave a portion uninsulated for storage separate from the shop. It has worked really well for me. Maybe 16x30 - that would leave you a 24x30 shop and that is a lot of shop!

I like spray on insulation. It stops the sweating, is quiet, and airtight. Use good windows with proper flashing and installation. Most of the windows supplied with metal buildings are junk and they leak - bad!

Just my thoughts.

[Don Bullock]

It sounds to me like you have a great dad. A lot of what you decide to do will be based on the building code in your area. I'd suggest that you investigate that aspect early on in the project, especially if you plan to do the work yourself. Good luck.

[Jim Becker]

For two grand, there is no question I'd have the pros put that building up so you can concentrate your efforts on the work needed to turn it into a shop. There is also the aspect of code/zoning that Don brings up that is often easier to negotiate when you have a contractor to deal with it.

On the big doors, if you can handle the cost of roll-ups or sliders, do it. Regular "garage" type overhead doors, while economical, take up overhead space...fine for a garage but not necessarily great for a shop, depending on where they are on the building. Also, consider some windows, at least high up on the wall, to allow some natural light into the space. It will make things much more comfortable over time. And windows in your "office" are also a good idea. I also agree that spray foam insulation is the best choice if you can afford that. Good insulation makes for a more comfortable environment in ALL seasons, not just the winter.

Don't forget to consider how you are going to heat the space during the cold months, too.

[Art Mulder]

...
Cost of floor estimated at $2500 plus gravel

For a shop, I'd vote for a wood floor.

If concrete is desired, then be sure and insulate under the slab.
Think about radiant in-floor heating also.

My 2 cents.
...art

["Jacob Robinson"]

I would agree a wood floor would sure feel nice after 12 hrs on it, but concrete makes it more versatile, especially when it comes to the resale aspect


yes I already have an uncle in the window business, so it is under control, also about how much does that spray foam run?

[John Keeton]

My vote would be for the polyurethane foam, not icynene, and the cost seems to vary widely by region. When I did my shop, 24x24, 10' eave, with the entire interior done, including the roof, it was $1800. I did about 1.5 - 2 inches and it is priced by the thickness of application and square foot. But, that was 4 years ago.

[David G Baker]

I agree with Jim on paying the $2000 to have professionals build your pole barn. I have seen some serious mistakes made by DIY'er built pole buildings. Metal roofs will sweat and create rain inside of your shop if it is not installed, vented correctly and insulated. I went with composition on my 30'X40X10" pole barn. I had 1 inch foil covered insulation installed under the metal siding. If I had the insulation to do over again I would have the spray foam insulation and have it sprayed by a professional. I had my ceiling covered with 6 mil sheet plastic with OSB covering that and put in 14 inches of blow in insulation in the attic. Wish I had painted the ceiling prior to installing lights and filling the building with all of my items.
A wood floor is not really cost effective in the size building you are considering. I put in 2 inches of blue foam board under my slab. I heat the building with a ceiling hung natural gas forced air heater. If I had the time and knowledge when I had the building build I would have had in slab heating tubes as a source of heat. I have not done a cost comparison on the different types of heat but the comfort level of the in floor heat is real nice.
Make sure that the building base is high enough to avoid water entering when it rains or snow melts. I had to raise my base up 18" with sand prior to pouring the concrete on it.
No matter what type of insulation you end up using, install as much as you can afford, it will pay for its self many times over during the life of the building.

[John Keeton]

Jacob, I do not have a "ceiling" in my shop. Mine lights are installed on chains from the trusses and purlins and hang at about 8'. I get enough light to blind most people. Not sure I would spend the money to put in a ceiling. With the foam insulation, I can heat up my shop in about 15 minutes or so with baseboard heaters - not the most efficient heat if you are going to be in it a lot. One of the gas heaters or a heat pump would be much more efficient. Either way, not having a ceiling is very convenient for clearance, storage in the truss web, etc. That space really came in handy when I installed my DC system. Others may differ on this.

["Jacob Robinson"]

That was kind of my thought too, (on the ceiling) with trusses on 4' O.C. you can make use of a lot of storage without a celing.

Also on having it built vs. building myself, the way I figure it: if I build it myself I can probably come real close to insulating the entire building for what I would pay to have it put up, plus this would be the third pole building I have been apart of, so I am confident that between me and my granpa things will get done right.

One more question what are your thoughts on the way post's are anchored to the ground?

in the past I have poured a concrete base in the bottom of the hole then sat the post then I filled the rest with concrete, on the other hand it seems most people do not fill the hole with concrete, and some do not even pour a pad they just set a block in the bottom of hole??

[Matt Meiser]

In addition to the sweat issue with a metal roof, they also tend to leak after a while around the holes for the fasteners. Both the lean-to addition on the garage at my last house and the barn at a house we looked at had both problems. I'd personally do the two-tone look like Morton does. Not only does it look nice, but its easier to replace panels when they get damaged, and they will.

Insulation--I insulated mine by framing between the poles. Instead of running vertical studs, I did them horizontally at the recommendation of my local lumber yard. It was easy to do because we could chop 23-1/2" blocks and the spacing was automatic. We then used standard R-19 kraft-face insulation. I put OSB over that. With three-four of us working it went extremely fast.

I also agree with walling off an unheated storage are. My barn is 30x48 and I have 16x30 separate. Make sure you provide some kind of thermal break in the concrete between the to sections. For me it was easy because the previous owner had only poured concrete in the front part that I was heating. My storage area now has a blue tarp for a floor over the gravel and dirt that was there. Someday I'd like to put in cement. My divider wall is just a 2x4 wall with OSB on the shop side and white steel on the storage side. I probably should have used OSB there but I was concerned about being able to paint it in the winter. The steel already has some dents and scrapes from moving things around.

I have two windows, plus one in the man door I wish I had several more. I also have a 12x12 overhead door which is huge and probably not very efficient despite being insulated. But it has come in handy a few times--for example a lift gate truck can set things right inside my shop. And when its nice out it brings the outside in nicely. The door to my storage area is a typical pole barn sliding door which is about 12x12 and I hate it. First of all, bird occasionally get in and set off the alarm. Usually when we are out of town. Second, its a huge pain in the winter because the ground heaves slightly and sticks to the door. Things might be better if I had concrete around it. To solve that I had to dig some out under the door, but that leaves room for things to get in underneath--rodents, wind-blown debris, etc. Its always hard to move. I will be replacing it with an 8x8 overhead door eventually.

I think the 10' height will be nice. Mine is 12 and while the height is nice, its a lot of extra volume to heat and its a long way up to hang things like lighting and ductwork. I ended up renting scaffolding for most of that before I moved my tools in. For the ceiling, I used white steel panels and then had insulation blown in on top of that. They sell an interior grade steel which my lumber yard tells me is the same thing without the warranty. It goes up fast and there's no finishing once they are up. While the storage might be nice, the reduced heating/cooling cost by having a lot of insulation up there is REALLY nice. My shop is typically prety cool in the summer even without running the A/C and doesn't take much to keep above freezing in the winter and then warm up to around 55 when Im working out there.

I'd definitely go with the concrete floor. Wood would be really nice but its not a multipupose floor. Odds are you won't live in the same place for the next 50-60 years and you have to at least consider resale. A wood floor will scare some buyers off. If you wanted wood, I'd put sleepers on the concrete and put wood over that so it could be removed. It would be more expensive but not as expensive as ripping out the wood later and putting in concrete becuase you wouldn't need the structure of a wood-only floor. You could even do that in part of the shop.

My barn was built by the preivious owner and my next door neighbor. They did a pretty good job, but it is slightly out of square. It has an vinyl-sided OSB exterior rather than the steel. I rather like the look of the steel and when its time to reside, I'll probably do it in the two-tone steel. To me, a building that big with vinyl siding looks kind of odd.

[Paul Greathouse]

That was kind of my thought too, (on the ceiling) with trusses on 4' O.C. you can make use of a lot of storage without a celing.

Also on having it built vs. building myself, the way I figure it: if I build it myself I can probably come real close to insulating the entire building for what I would pay to have it put up, plus this would be the third pole building I have been apart of, so I am confident that between me and my granpa things will get done right.

One more question what are your thoughts on the way post's are anchored to the ground?

in the past I have poured a concrete base in the bottom of the hole then sat the post then I filled the rest with concrete, on the other hand it seems most people do not fill the hole with concrete, and some do not even pour a pad they just set a block in the bottom of hole??

Jacob

I built my own 30X50 shop/pole barn 3 years ago. I have alot of carpentry experince and two sons for helpers, if not for that I would have hired it done.

I drilled my post holes approx. 2' deeper than necessary and poured concrete in the bottom of the hole to provide a base for the post. Post rot is a major concern down here in Louisiana with all the moisture and non-sandy soil we have. I wraped the bottom of the posts with "window wrap" and then spread roofing tar around the window wrap. Window wrap is an asphalt membrane with a foil backing in case your not familiar. The window wrap extends up above the level of the finished slab.

The next day after the concrete had dried I set the posts and braced them off. Then I poured concrete around the posts up to the bottom of the chain wall. I wanted the posts to be solid so that they couldn't be bumped out of place by the concrete finishers when the main slab was poured. Doing it this way also allowed me to remove the bracing before the slab was poured which prevented the bracing from being in the way of the concrete finishers.

I included 16"-18" chain walls around the perimeter of the building and also 12" chain walls across the width of the building at 10' intervals. Call it overkill but I don't like cracked slabs.

[John Keeton]

I will throw in on the issue of the sliding doors and setting of posts. My sliders have not had the same problem as Matt's. Have had a few birds, but not more than a couple in 4 years. Don't have an alarm system. The function of the sliders is just so much more convenient than a garage door, for a variety of reasons.

My slab was poured first, and anchor plates drilled and bolted into the slab. They have worked fine, held up to some 60-70 mph winds with no discernible effect, and no rot of course. The spray insulation stiffens the building considerably.

If I set the posts in the ground, I would put 8" of gravel in the bottoms for drainage. Concreted wood posts are known to rot because the concrete holds the moisture against the bottom.

IF I used concrete, it would be only in the top portion of the hole for stability while during construction. The slab would be poured around 3 sides and the structure will keep the posts from moving any. Just my 2 pennies!

["Jacob Robinson"]

I think I'm gonna have to pass on the spray foam, got a quote for $1.50/in/sq. ft so that puts me over 4,000$ for the building I don't think I can swing that

[Jeffrey Schronce]

$2000 to construct is a deal IMHO. Think about the value of the time of everyone involved in the process.

Agree on prior that wood floor would be awesome, just a lot more work than concrete slab.

As far as roof considerations, I posted my thought in your other thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92884