Is Festool really that good?

[Joe Fusco]

I tend to agree with Peter in the sense that you need to get a certain value for your money from anything you buy. Being a person with a fair amount invested in Festool in general, I was quite disappointed when I first heard the prices of the Kapex and the 2200 router.

In my opinion these tools are all they are cracked up to be (well almost), but what they are, is not worth what they are asking for them.

[David Shleifer]

I'm not a woodworker by trade, and to call myself a hobbyist would be a stretch. Recently I went out and purchased a bosch portable table saw, and a rigid slider. My wife went with it because it cut the amount of time it would for me to get certain things done around the house that we would otherwise pay someone else to do, and each task would have cost us more than the tool purchase. Was it woth it? I would say yes.

My father recently purchased a bunch of absurdly expensive fountain pens. He will likely never write with them, and he does not write for a living. They have no utility or value for what they produce. They are almost garunteed to be a depreciating asset (in rare cases some of them go up). A 10 cent bic can do the same job. Every time he opens his pen case (yes he collects such things) he smiles when he looks at the thing. I can't afford to spend my money the way he does, but he can. Who am I to say how much he should be willing to pay per smile?

Purchasing tools is similar. If you are only purchasing a tool to get the job done (why I buy crafsman for my car tools and not snap-on) than it may not justify the price. If you are purchasing it to make a process take less time, or to make it more enjoyable, it is up to you if that time savings is worth it, or if your enjoyment is increased enough to warrant the cost. For me its not, but I understand why it would be. If you are a professional, looking at only how much it will increase your efficinecy, and therefore increase the thickness of your wallet, things get easier. If it saves you engouh time or money over the life of the tool its worth it. Otherwise not.

For the lucky among us, our jobs are a cross between our hobby and our livelyhood. For those who have the money and oppurtunity to spend the little bit extra of our money (or sometimes our companies) to make this possible, its a personal choice as to if its worth it. I recently made a similar argument to one of the IT guys at my company, and they replaced my computer. I'm valuable enough to the company that my extra enjoyment of my job from having the faster computer was worth it to them to outlay the money. I would think the same may or may not be true about the more enjoyable tools. Its all about the guy making the cut.

Sorry about the rant.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Hello all,

This conversation is very entertaining to me. I don't have to justify the way I spend the expendable income that I earn. No one can argue that point. If you want it, buy it. Here is the only real answer to your question. Buy what you can afford.

Best regards,
Ed Costello

Great post Ed.

[Burt Waddell]

Sorry about the rant.

If that was a rant we need more rants. Seriously, that was a great post.

Burt

[Mike Shields]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.

I've often thought about this mentality, and it honestly leaves me a little miffed.

We can apply this to so many things in life: guns, motorcycles, tools, snowboards, etc.

I'd like to offer this thought: for someone who does not have alot of experience, a better quality product (of any type) can allow the user to focus on becoming a better user, rather than spending time fighting with a inferior product.

Unless, of course, your one of those individuals who has been graced with god-given-talent. I wasn't, so I rely upon assistance wherever I can get it.

IMO,
Mike

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting thread. Here's my 2 cents....

Looking at the Festool line as a whole, the jewels are the plunge saw (TS55/75), the vac (CT-22, etc), the sanders, the guide rails and the MFT. And maybe one of the routers. Those items together make a system that lets you do a tremendous amount of work with great accuracy and little dust. I use these every time I do anything in the shop. As I grow older and start downsizing, these will be the last things to go.

There are a lot of other Festools that are great tools, but they generally fit a niche. I've never been disappointed in a Festool, but if money were tight, I probably would not have bought them. For instance, I brought out the LS130 linear sander to sand the paint off some grooves in my exterior door and totally loved its performance, but its been a year since I used it last.

As Per says, if you make a living with a miter saw, you should give the Kapex a good once over. If your hobby uses miter saws a lot, and you enjoy that, give it a try, you can always return it for full price within 30 days.

I don't use a miter saw much (I do mostly furniture making, chairs these days), but every time a crank up my DeWally and it spits dust in spite of a cyclone and a dust hood, I confess that I hear a voice whispering "get a Kapex dummy and stop breathing this cr**." Who knows, maybe one of these days one will follow me home.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'd like to offer this thought: for someone who does not have alot of experience, a better quality product (of any type) can allow the user to focus on becoming a better user, rather than spending time fighting with a inferior product.

This reminds me of a story when I was a non union laborer (that is, shophand) in a union sheet metal shop when I was in my late teens and early twenties.

I had this crappy arc welding machine from Sears at my mother's house. It had terrible arc stability and a short duty cycle. I used to bring scrap metal home from the sheetmetal shop to practice welding. I spent hours on this machine to perfect my skills.

Then, one day in the sheetmetal shop, I used their commercial Miller arc welder to weld some racks back together on the delivery truck. This machine was sweet. It was about 6 times the size of my Sears' machine. The weld bead flowed like butter with almost no splatter. The resulting welds looked like a stack of dimes laying on their side.

However, a short time later, some of the sheetmetal mechanics saw me and came running over to tell me to stop perfoming union tasks. However, when they saw how well the welds were, they became more interested in where I learned to weld. I told them: "at home on a crappy Sears' welder...and, if you can stick weld with that horrid machine, you can stick weld with any machine!"

Go figure...Jeff

[Erik Frederiksen]

There are all kinds of practical reasons for buying Festools: efficiency, accuracy, safety, durability, etc, etc.

There is yet another not insignificant reason. I find I enjoy woodworking a lot more when I use a really nice tool. I look forward to grabbing one of my systainers or finding that I need to drag out my kapex. If you do this kind of work 40 hours a week, why not try to enjoy it a bit more?

[Don Bullock]

This is a super thread. I, for one, appreciate all the responses from those who say Festool is worth the money as well as those who don't. Yes, I own a SawStop, a couple of Festool sanders and a CT 22, but the Kapex is not something I'll go out and buy just to have one even if it is a "joy" to cut with. Perhaps, if and when my Hatachi, stops working and if I have the cash, I'll consider one. Until then I have a lot more tools that I'd like to spend that money on as I get my new shop up and running. As a hobbiest I do enjoy having good tools. Unfortunately my income, now that I'm retired, will be more limited than it was. I also have many other things for the new shop that I need before I go out and buy more tools. The OP wanted to know if Festool is really that good. We could debate that issue for hours, perhaps even days and months. I'll take Per's opinion due to his expertise and the work I've seen him post here and say yes. I, however, at this point don't need one. Karl, only you can decide if it's good enough to spend the extra dollars for your situation.

[William OConnell]

Hey guess what? Festool is a quality manufacturer. No doubt. I own lots of there stuff. I own and love there sanders, 1400 router(although I reach for a PC more), vacuum, rails, circular saw. I get an actual enjoyment from using these things which makes my work day a little happier and thats a good thing. However the Kapex is not something on my wish list. I tried one and it was not comfortable for me. I feel better with a horizontal handle, for whatever reason. I like Bosches jig saw better also
I have a Dewalt 708 on a delta stand which gives me all the mobility I need. Its all the saw I need also. I tuned it buy cutting a series of triangles to make a hexagon years ago, by the way, and its amazingly remained dead on even with all the moving around it does.
No folks because its a 12" blade doesn't mean its going to wobble and ruin my work, maybe because I use higher quality blades, who knows, thats a phenomenon I haven't experienced. I really enjoy all my Festool products and they are a joy to use and help me create things I have in my mind.
But so does my Dewalt slider, my Delta unisaw, my Powermatic planer etc. All different brands. each a pleasure to use.
For me personally if a Kapex and a 708 Dewalt were the choices I'd pick the Dewalt. Its not broke, I don't need to fix it. The saw and myself are a nice marriage and I'm happy.



Set up yesterday

[Karl Brogger]

There's quite the mix of responses here. The plan is that while the Milwaukee 10" mitre saw works just fine in the shop, I could use a better saw for install, I have three of the Milwaukee saws floating around. So the Festool saw would be sitting on the shelf for 95% of the time.

I don't need to justify anything. When it comes to tooling, it costs what it costs. Prestige means nothing. Well sorta. I've got a piece of junk Dodge Dakota that is covered in hail damage. I will not drive that to a potential customers project. It looks like I can't afford a decent vehicle. But nobody is going to notice you're toting around a expensive ass saw.

Here's an example of a tool being worth what they charge. Some tools are worth whatever they cost, The Porter Cable 504 beltsander IS the only belt sander to own in a shop enviroment. There is none better. Period. It does suck for install, just because it weighs 14lbs, but that same 14lbs is made up of worm gears, and chain drive. They don't make them anymore, and the few remaining are selling in the ballpark of $1k, which is $200 more than what they sold for before they were discontinued. I would gladly pay more for another one. When a tool is really worth what is charged for it, is when you are willing to pay more than what they do. It doesn't sound like anyone carries the same, dare I say "love" for the Kapex, apex, whatever, that I do for the 504 beltsander.

And yes, a Mercedes is worth every penny.

and no, I really haven't come up with a solution yet.

[Alan Schaffter]

One of my Milwaukee 10" mitre saws it taking a crap on me. Are these really worth $1300?

Is the FX-1 worth what you paid? Do you do that many tough field installations where a precise mitersaw is essential? Do you have a health problem where outstanding dust collection is essential? You gotta have a real need, or just a real bad want . . . . . and the cash.

[Per Swenson]

I don't want to belabor the point and lets forget for a second
the Festool brand and price and focus on methods of work for the professional.

All though Mr OConnel's 2nd picture in the driveway above is
pretty standard for a North Eastern Carpenter, and also it appears he is working a deck project, lets think for a moment the same set up for interior work.

Any time I am not set up inside next to my work I am losing money.
No I do not employ a cut man at the moment as the long term employment I would like to offer, in order to keep a skilled man has been devastated by this economy.

Speaking of the economy, I can't afford to pull a trailer with my F350,
unless the customer absorbs the fuel bills.

So what to do?
Get efficient. How? Consolidate the whole operation in the areas of wasted time and expense.

For instance I am quite fond of the new Milwaukee 12 miter saw.
But it is huge and weigh 65 plus pounds and it's gonna suck bringing it to the third floor.

Today, instead of the F350 which sits forlorn in the driveway. (7MPG)
we travel in a Saturn VUE. I have materials delivered.
I can fit kapex, dust collection, 10 systainer's and two tool bags.
At the Beginning of the day i can set up in under a 1/2 hour.

At the end of the day, I no longer have to budget over a hour to clean the entire house of saw dust.

Being efficient has its rewards, not only in time saved and monies earned but in that special bond that forms between customer and contractor when they are able to come home from work and their activities are only mildly interrupted.

To sum up, saying that these tools are overpriced etc. is really missing the full picture. Remember, I said they ain't for everybody. But when I said that
I forgot about the elitist branding meme currently gaining traction.

Bunch a horsegooey ya ask me.
Cause I'm a struggling red/hippy/neck/carpenter, who by investing money
in a system allows me to actually provide a service at a lower cost to the consumer. Increasing my reputation and keeping food on the table.

If that's elitism, each and every one of us is guilty.

Per

[Clifford Mescher]

I can see where contractors could make money from Festool brand tools. That being said, I think they are marketing their products to a much broader base. I see Festool full page advertisements in almost every woodworking magazine.
I am not a shrink and I don't portray one on television but there has to be some reason why Joe Blow hobbyist has a $1300 miter cutter in his garage. Clifford

[Jim Finn]

The S-Class has more leg room.

......
Important if you have three legs... true