combo or not?

[Ron Lawrence]

Hi, my first kick at this cat A newbie from NW British Columbia....ok.... the question....

Better to buy a TWO quality machines...a thickness plane and a jointer.... as opposed to a combination jointer/planer? It seems to me that it is an unwinnable crapshoot of unrealistic expectation that the combo will be an enduring satisfaction because of a number of factors just waiting to overburden the dream of combo success....so is it better to accept the presence of TWO machines [especially if space is not a problem and the machines can be mobilized] and maximize the quality of performance and machine integrity?

Thanks for all forthcoming advice....Ron

[Rod Sheridan]

Holly Makerel Ron, I didn't need my reading glasses for your post!


Hi, I went through a similar decision process last year.

I previously owned a General 8 inch jointer, and a General 14 inch planer.

Living in a townhouse, space is always at a premium, so I began looking at jointer/planer combinations.

I looked at Laguna, MiniMax, Felder and Hammer, and chose a Hammer A3-31 (310mm/12 inch).

I couldn't be happier with the machine, and have found that the dreaded change over fears are nothing but fears.

I don't find the 30 seconds or so it takes to change from one function to another is onerous in any way.

It is fantastic to have a 12 inch jointer, with extension tables if I want to have help with long work pieces.

The quality of the machine is superb, no regrets going from General to Hammer.

The extra shop space is nice, in a year or so I will probably replace my General 650 and shaper with either a Hammer or Felder combination saw/shaper.

I had wanted A Felder or Hammer for a while, however the dealer was in Winnipeg. (I'm sure someone in Austria decided that Winnipeg was the center of Canada so that's where the dealer would be).

I now have a dealer in Toronto, which is where I live, so I was willing to buy, wish I had done it earlier.

Contact Felder and ask them for a DVD of the Hammer and Felder equipment, as well see if you can get a MiniMax DVD.

The capabilities, performance and accuracy of the European machines has to be seen to be appreciated.

Regards, Rod.

[Richard McComas]

I've had a Felder planer/jointer for 9-10 years now. Very happy with the set up (I'd buy again if I ever need again). It saves space and money over buying separate machines of equal quality.

In my opinion there are two must have accessories for these machines that make them truly a pleasure to use. My Felder has a highly accurate digital readout for the planer thickness and an electric lift kit that raised the planer and lowers the planer table. If you want to plane a board to 3/4 thick you just push the planer table button and watch the readout until it reads 3/4. Very accurate and repeatable.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ron, Rod is right on with the quality of the better combos. I have a shiney new Felder combo sitting ten foot from me now. I actually find it suprising that the Austrians can pack that much quality into one of these machines for the price that they get.

There is absoulutly no similarity between a Felder and a Griz, or even a Powermatic. Not meaning that in a condecending way, just look at each, and you'll see what I mean. Even the very basic features of the machines are different. Maybe comparable to a Buhgati (sp?) vs a Mustang.

As for the seperates vs combos, I went combo initially for space savings. I also took the 8.5' sliding table, so not sure if I actually saved space. If I had to do it over, I would make the quality the determining factor and would have still bought the exact same machine. I am still waiting on tooling so I don't have much actual use on my machine yet, but with the week of fiddling that I have been able to achieve, I can't see any issues with change over.

Rods right, it takes all of maybe 30 seconds to switch from jointer to planer. That being the most intensive changeover process, illustrates how simple the others are.

To sum it up, there is no comprimise in a high quality combo, and there is actually a bit of savings on the price over two dedicated machines of similar quality. Keep in mind, I'm thinking of the top tier European makers Felder, Hammer, MiniMax, and maybe others.

Welcome to the Creek by the way!

[Paul Kinneberg]

+1 on the Hammer A3-31 I have had mine for about 18 moths and have been more than satisfied and wouldn't even consider two machines unless space was of no concern.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a believer in J/P combos largely because it's the most economical way to get big jointer capacity without the extraordinary footprint of separates with the same capacity. I'm also a believer in wide jointers for any number of reasons. This obviously is for a one-person shop. Combos are less desirable when there are multiple workers involved.

My J/P combo is from MiniMax.

[Don Abele]

Ron, I'll start by seconding what Rod said, holy cow your type font is huge...I had to back away from the screen to read it

I went through this same decision process not too long ago. I was upgrading from a lunchbox planer and a 6" jointer. I was looking at Grizzly separates, a 15" planer and a 12" jointer. The cost was about the same as the Hammer A3 31 (12") combo but the real saving was in real estate and weight.

Just the 12" jointer alone weighs over 1000 pounds and add another 600 or so for the planer. For someone who moves a lot, that's A LOT of added weight. The size difference is also huge, especially for the jointer. With my 6" jointer I've NEVER had a need for aircraft carrier long beds so the shorter bed on the combo machine was not a detractor. Besides, I was able to get bed extensions if I ever really feel the need for the longer length.

As others have said, many say it's inconvient to switch from one mode to the other. It's quick, real quick and real easy. In the past and now with my combo unit, I don't find myself having to go from jointer to planer and back again. Many also say it's also an issue of repeatability. They can set their planer to 3/4 and leave it there until a project is done so any thicknessing that needs to be done later will match. I got the digital readout for my planer handwheel and it's dead-on accurate for repeatability, so again, another non-issue.

The last item is probably the most controversial - quality. I have Grizzly machines and love them - they are excellent machines. But the quality and construction of the Hammer is amazing and I'm sure will outlast me. When it comes to cast iron I believe you do get what you pay for and there is no comparison between my jointer beds and those found on the Grizzly units.

Be well,

Doc

[Brad Shipton]

I echo the comments of others regarding the quality of the euro machines. I too have an A3-31 and a B3 saw/shaper. I would ask if you are an organized woodworker? If not, there are times you might find the changeovers a bit of a nuisance. For me, space was the issue as well as cost. You will save a couple $$ with a combo and they certainly take up less space, but that comes with a small sacrifice in convienience. If you have space and the $$, I would go with separates.

Sure would be nice if you stick to normal size font for you next posts

Brad

[Ron Lawrence]

Thanks a ton,everybody..... sorry to those who are non-MR MAGOO in their eyeshot.... I will underwhelm the next time..... the Hammer A3-31 sounds impressive indeed..... out of curiosity my fellow Canucks what was the cost for such a Bughatti? I do not have an airplane-hangar-sized shop so I should not be too cavalier with my shop's size in thinking that quantity [2 machines] is the only valid scenario insuring quality..... the bells and whistles [digital readouts] sound like they are no frivolous bling. Is knife replacement/removal also a charm?

Thanks,Ron

[Hank Knight]

Ron,

I've never had the luxury of enough space to accommodate separate machines. I have always used a jointer planer combo. Mine is an Inca 570. It's a lightweight machine but it has a very loyal following. I've never used a Hamer, Felder or any of the other modern combos, so I don't have any basis for comparing my Inca to them. It's my belief, however, that the new combos are solid and convenient to operate, as all who have replied have said.

Having said that, if I were given the option of choosing between a combo and separate machines - if space were not an issue - I'd choose separate machines every time. Even though it takes me only a minute or so to convert my Inca from one configuration to another, it's still a hassle. I lose settings every time I change over. My machine is a manual adjust - not automatically repeatable - which adds to the hassle. Invariably, when I need to use the jointer, my machine is set up in planer mode and vice versa. This may be a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but I dream of having space enough for separate machines. I love my Inca, given my limited space circumstances, but I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a two machine setup and room.

One point I should make here: My Inca is a 10 1/2" machine. An 8" jonter seems to be about the standard for most shops, particularly nonprofessional ones. If there's one thing I'd hate to give up with my little Inca it's the jointer capacity. If you go with separate machines, get a BIG jointer.

My $.02

Hank

[Curt Harms]

Like Rod, I live in a townhouse with a basement shop. Space is an issue. i had a 6" jointer and was looking for wider. Decided why go from 6" to 8"? And 12" jointers are neither cheap nor light. Livin' on the po' side 'o town I went with the Jet JJP12. It does everything I need it to do and accurately. I also drive a Ford Ranger. I'm sure the Euro machines have tighter tolerances and probably better castings. I also suspect Mercedes has higher quality machines than my Ford pick 'em up truck. However, both machines accomplish what I need for them to accomplish. To each his or her own If I had the space, my decision re separates vs. combo would have required much more thought. Changeover isn't much of an issue but it is something to think about. The other consideration is with a combo, if 1 part fails it may disable all the functions, not just the one.

HTH

Curt

[Peter Quadarella]

I thought long and hard about the Jet 12" combo. In the end I didn't want to spend the money so bought a lunchbox planer, and then later on I did end up getting a jointer also. I always figured it would be nice to have the 2 machines anyway so I didn't have to switch over all the time.

Now that I've had them for a little bit, I don't think it would have been that big of a deal, and I would have liked the extra width. If I were doing it over, I think I would probably do the combo.

[Don Abele]

Ron, I agree with what Hank said - IF I had the room and didn't move every two-three years I would much prefer seperates. But in my situation the combo is the best alternative. I looked seriously at the Jet and Grizzly combo units and would consider them to be equally matched to one another (each has it's better points). The only reason I went with the Hammer (and have been blown away with it's quality) is I got an excellent deal on a show model that put it very close to the cost of the Jet. In my hobbyists shop, it's all Jet equipment and I've never complained about it not living up to my use.

As for knife changes on the Hammer, it takes about 3 minutes to change them all. It's one of the fastest and easiest tools to change the blade on (my Milwaukee jigsaw with quick release wins that one).

Be well,

Doc

[Barry Vabeach]

Ron, I got the Jet combo because of space and price. While it is pretty good, if I had the space I would have considered 2 separate machines, but that was not an option. I don't mind changing from one mode to the other ( I adapted the Jet so I can use a cordless drill to move the planer table up and down ) but there are a few down sides to the Jet combo, IMHO. First, the planer table is 21 inches long which is way too short - when I plane short pieces ( say 24 inches or less ) the pieces often fall off the outfeed because it is so short. With the table extension on my old planer, I could run 6 or 8 short pieces through and they would just sit on the extension. ( The Grizzly is not much better at 24 inches long) I am thinking of making a table extension on the outfeed to solve that. I wanted to extend the infeed to get the pieces in order before I feed them through, but I haven't figured out the dimensions and configuration of an infeed table that won't conflict with the dust collection outlet ( in the jointing mode) and the controls for the planing. Second, the dust collection isn't as good as a stand alone, because the dust hood has to shift from one side to the other. It still is a great machine, and the price to value ratio is very good. Where a combo should shine is if you use a shelix head, because then you should save some significant money. For example, the 12 inch Grizzly jointer with a spiral head is $2,000 and for $200 more you get a 12 inch jointer planer with spiral head, which is pretty unbelievable- though there probably are some differences in the jointer specs.

[Brad Shipton]

Ron, by the time mine was in my shop I think it was around $5k. There is an inspection fee to get the CSA cert ($400 if I recall correctly), and it was around $400 to ship from Winnipeg to Northern BC. The current catlog lists the A3-31 at $3,300. You will probably have good luck finding an A3 in stock, but if you end up ordering one I dont think you will see it until the new year since the next container is not due until January. Unless things have changed recently, Winnipeg warehouses all of the Western Canada stock.

By digital, I assume you just meant the dial gauge and not the Hammer's bigger brothers? The AD741 with electronic drives is pretty popular with the Felder Online Group (FOG), but that will run over $10k.

I sure would not discount taking a look at the SCMI machines either. Euro-tech services has a branch in Van and Calgary.

Brad