Made a Dovetail Saw

[Robert Rozaieski]

After seeing Alan's beautiful bronze backed saw, I wondered if it might be possible for me to make a saw without any specialized tools. I really need a longer (16" or so) tenon saw for sawing wider tenon cheeks but I'm in no position to buy a premium saw like one of Mike W's beauties right now and vintage tenon saws in the 16-19" range don't exactly grow on trees. I thought it might be possible for me to make one but having never made a saw before and not wanting to spend $85 on a piece of brass for one just to screw it up, I had to think outside the box, or inside the big box store so to speak . Before I go ahead and order any materials for a longer saw I thought I would try my hand at making a smaller one to see if my plan would work.

So I went over to the big blue box store to see what they had available to use for making a saw. Spring steel for the saw plate isn't a problem as the blued drywall taping knives are the same steel as saws and in the case of a dovetail saw, the right thickness (0.020"). The real problem was going to be the back. I thought about just getting a long piece of flat mild steel bar from the isle where they have the sheet metal, steel and aluminum bar stock. I could then use the lamination method with some brass pins peened over perhaps to hold everything together (I still may need to, more on this in a minute). Then I spied something interesting. I always knew that they had 90 degree angle with the flat steel and steel rods but I never noticed the style of the 14 ga. steel angle before. It's not your typical angle cast/extruded through a die that has the sharp, extremely thick outside corner. The 14 ga. stuff looks like it was simply bent in a brake from flat stock into a 90 degree angle. The light went on and I thought I might be able to make a folded back without any special tools (like a brake) afterall using this 14 ga. angle stock as a starting point. So off I went with a 10" taping knife and a 3' piece of 3/4" x 3/4" 14 ga. steel angle.

A little work with a 3 lb. drilling hammer on the anvil of my machinist vise got me to something resembling a folded steel back. Some work with a file to score and snap the spring steel to rough size, some file work to clean it up and tap-tap-tap the saw plate into the back and I had myself a dovetail saw blank. Handle was an easy job using the Grammercy saw kit handle pattern available on Joel's web site. A $20 order to McMaster Carr for some brass threaded rod and 1/2" brass round rod stock to make some split nuts using Leif Hanson's "Poor Boy Split Nut" method and I had me a saw. So here's the final result.

Saw1.jpg

Saw2.jpg

Final specs: 9" blade length, 17 PPI rip, 5 degrees of rake, bubinga handle finished with 3 coats of linseed oil and wax, and brass "Poor Boy Split Nuts". I used Mike's Kenyon dovetail saw and the Grammercy dovetail saw as models and made some minor modifications/personalizations. The test cut made me a believer. It cuts much more effeciently than my current dovetail saw which is 19 PPI rip with 8 degrees of rake, but the cut was still very clean. Overall I am very satisfied but there are a few things that need to be worked out before I move on to a longer saw.

First, it became obvious when hammering the steel angle to close the folded back that one needs to take this very slowly to avoid twisting and bending the back. You cannot just start bashing away and expect it not to twist on you. I had to straighten my back some so I will be more careful next time. I still may need to laminate a longer saw back as opposed to folding it as it seems that the longer the piece of steel, the more tendency it has to twist when hammering it closed. But for $7 I'll take a chance. If it doesn't work I'm only out $7.

I also tried to countersink the saw bolt and peen the threaded rod down into the countersink rather than using glue to attach the threaded rod to the bolt head. I don't have a silver soldering setup or I would have done that. Peening worked ok but I think I cut the initial bolt head blank too thick and then had to file too much away later to make it flush to the handle so the threaded rod is a little loose in the bolt heads and there is a small gap where it is very obvious that the bolt is two pieces. I'll make the bolt head blanks thinner next time so there is less filing in the end and this should help this problem. I think I'll add a little red thread locker as well for a little extra hold. The one thing that did work well was using a lock washer under the bolt head rather than trying to form a square shank and mortise to keep the bolt from spinning as you tighten the split nut. I stole this idea from the Grammercy saw as well.

All in all I am really glad that I tried this and am confident that I can make a longer saw with a little patience. I'll need to order a longer and thicker piece of spring steel for that but for around $25 you get enough for at least 3 saws. I also think I'll stick with the steel backs. I like the traditional folded back and steel was a traditional back material. Plus, the cheapest piece of alloy 260 brass I found was $85. Two 3' pieces of steel angle are $14 and can do 4 saws.

I really urge anyone on the fence about trying something like this to just try it. It really was not as difficult as I thought it was going to be and you really don't need any specialized tools that you probably don't already have as a woodworker. It was a really fun project.

Bob

[Marcus Ward]

WOW!!!! That is an excellent tutorial and I really appreciate you posting that. I am going to give it a try as soon as I get a chance.

[John Erhardt]

Always look forward to your posts, Bob. Really nice job. I also caught a Woodwright's shop episode this past weekend that showed (metalworkers can correct me here) cold forging? Anyway, metalworking you can do without a fire. Was WAY easier-looking than I had thought. Hammering some smaller pieces, using a punch, how to file metal, etc. Between that, and your photos here, I may have to try some out.

J

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hey Bob, nice job!

fwiw, the steel in the dry wall knives is the same as regards being spring steel. But I think you would find it is 1080 or "less." Still spring steel. But it isn't quite the same as current makers who use 1095. Another fwiw, the new Disston is also 1080 (or rather, the English spec of CS80), as well as those saws made by Garlick in England. Hmm, could be a connection there...

Take care, Mike

[Michael Faurot]

Very nice. The Bubinga handle is very striking. It looks like a fun project I'd like to try myself. If you don't mind a bit of interrogation, I'm curious to know some more details (see below).

Regarding the means by which you cut the spring steel of the dry-wall knife. You said you used, "a file to score and snap the spring steel to rough size". I'm not familiar with this technique, but it sounds like the same concept used to cut glass. Would you elaborate on this a bit? In particular what type of file and how is this used to score the spring steel?

Regarding the teeth. How did you lay out where the teeth would be at 17 points per inch? After that, did you just file the teeth or did you have another method or technique to do the initial forming? From what I can see in the pictures, it doesn't look like the teeth are very big/deep. How big/deep are they? Finally, I didn't see any mention of how the teeth are set. Did you put any set to the teeth?

[Alan DuBoff]

Bob,

Awesome job on the saw, it looks wonderful and I bet it works the same.

I'm honored to have inspired anyone, and saws can be tricky to make, but there is many ways to skin a cat.

I like the shape of the Grammercy handles, they are very nice. Very accentuated horns, I like that.

I took apart a saw this weekend to copy the handle, not that I couldn't copy it without taking it apart, I consider it to be one of the nicer examples of a London Pattern handle, it was off a Davenport 14". My next saw will use this style handle, with a 3" deep blade, 18" long. A larger version of the Joiners saw I made with bronze, but this will be done out of brass as it is for someone else.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks for the kind comments everyone! I'm really thrilled that it came out the way it did.

Hey Bob, nice job!

fwiw, the steel in the dry wall knives is the same as regards being spring steel. But I think you would find it is 1080 or "less." Still spring steel. But it isn't quite the same as current makers who use 1095.

Thanks Mike! I thought it seemed a little more flexible than I thought it should be. I'm sure you are right. For a first try at making a saw though it was worth using it. If I ever do another dovetail saw I would likely order some proper 1095 anyway and will definately do that for the longer saw I am planning to make.

Regarding the means by which you cut the spring steel of the dry-wall knife. You said you used, "a file to score and snap the spring steel to rough size". I'm not familiar with this technique, but it sounds like the same concept used to cut glass. Would you elaborate on this a bit? In particular what type of file and how is this used to score the spring steel?

Exactly like cutting glass. I used the corner of a triangular file and a steel ruler as a straightedge. I pushed the file corner along the straight edge several times to basically begin filing a groove in the spring steel. After several passes I put the spring steel in the machinist vise, score line even with the top of the jaws, waste side up, and wearing a pair of leather work gloves, bent the waste away from the score line until it broke. It breaks along the line just like glass because the score line is a point of weakness. You can use the same process to cut up old beaten saws into card scrapers.

Regarding the teeth. How did you lay out where the teeth would be at 17 points per inch? After that, did you just file the teeth or did you have another method or technique to do the initial forming? From what I can see in the pictures, it doesn't look like the teeth are very big/deep. How big/deep are they? Finally, I didn't see any mention of how the teeth are set. Did you put any set to the teeth?

Michael, I used a cad program to draw a 5" line and then copied and offset that line by 1/17", repeating that offset over 9". When printed out full scale you can fold the paper and insert it into the vise with your blank saw plate and it will show you exactly where to file. Just place the corner of the file on each line. Leif Hanson's web site has PDF files of different pitches that you can just print and use as well. I filed the teeth in with a 4" 2X slim file. I've done this many times before on old beaters and it's really not as hard as one might think. On a large 5 point 28" rip saw it can be time consuming as it is a lot of filing, but it's still doable. The teeth aren't that big but it's a 17 ppi saw so the teeth really won't be that big. I really don't know how deep the gullets are or how wide each tooth is. The tooth size is dictated by the PPI and the file used. One really doesn't need to worry about measuring this. It works itself out.

I started by filing two or three swipes at each location of a tooth, dictated by the lines on the paper. This roughs in the position of each gullet on the saw plate. I filed each gullet leaving a flat on top of each tooth. I wasn't filing the teeth to a point at this time, just marking their position. After all the teeth were roughed in, they still had small flats on top and were not sharp yet. I didn't need to re-joint as I never filed the initial flats completely away. I set the teeth very minimally with a Disston saw set and then finished filing each tooth until the flats just disappeared. This took one to two more swipes on each tooth. I filed every other tooth in the direction of the set, then flipped the saw around and filed the remaining teeth in the direction of their set. The final step was to make one pass on each side from heel to toe with a hard Arkansas slip stone to remove the filing burrs. Pete Taran's saw filing instructions are all you need to do this.

Bob,

Awesome job on the saw, it looks wonderful and I bet it works the same.

I'm honored to have inspired anyone, and saws can be tricky to make, but there is many ways to skin a cat.

I like the shape of the Grammercy handles, they are very nice. Very accentuated horns, I like that.

I took apart a saw this weekend to copy the handle, not that I couldn't copy it without taking it apart, I consider it to be one of the nicer examples of a London Pattern handle, it was off a Davenport 14". My next saw will use this style handle, with a 3" deep blade, 18" long. A larger version of the Joiners saw I made with bronze, but this will be done out of brass as it is for someone else.

Thanks Alan! The Grammercy handle is really nice and really comfortable. But Joel wasn't kidding in his description of his saw when he said the handle was small. Not small in the sense of space for your fingers as it's about the same size as most of my other saws in this regard, however, it is thinner when finished. I haven't used it much yet but my initial impressions are that this will force a more relaxed grip on the saw and hence a more fluid and relaxed sawing stroke. I really like it in the few test cuts I've made so far.

I like the London Pattern handle on that Davenport a lot. In fact, that is the style I was planning to use on the longer tenon saw I'm planning in the near future. Would you mind sharing the pattern of it once you have it done? I was going to work from pictures but it's difficult to really get a feel for scale from pictures. Having an original to copy is much better. My other thought was to ask Mike if he had patterns for the Kenyon sash and tenon handles he wouldn't mind sharing but I know these are kind of proprietary property.

[Ray Gardiner]

I like the London Pattern handle on that Davenport a lot. In fact, that is the style I was planning to use on the longer tenon saw I'm planning in the near future. Would you mind sharing the pattern of it once you have it done? I was going to work from pictures but it's difficult to really get a feel for scale from pictures. Having an original to copy is much better. My other thought was to ask Mike if he had patterns for the Kenyon sash and tenon handles he wouldn't mind sharing but I know these are kind of proprietary property.

Hi Robert,

Nice work, you have done a beautiful job, congratulations!

The London Pattern is one I like a lot, you might be able to make use of some of these templates.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=8

Regards
Ray

[Jim Becker]

Robert, that's a beautiful saw. The handle is really major elegant. I like how you kept this saw small, too.

[William Drylie]

Bob, nice work!

I also made a dovetail saw using a gauge metal angle for the back and a taping knife for the blade. I used walnut for the handle. The saw nuts were from a discarded saw. When this saw turned out o.k. I decided to attempt a tenon saw. In my case I used a blade from a back saw bought in the 60's which had an uncomfortabe handle and a very light back. It was filed crosscut, so I refiled it rip. Handle in this case from birch. Again the saw nuts from a discarded saw. I did find that keeping the back straight was more difficult on the longer saw. The dovetail saw has a 9 1/2" blade the tenon saw has a 14" blade.

Bill

[Steve Hamlin]

Superb! This sort of post is such an inspiration for us ditherers.

Thanks Alan! The Grammercy handle is really nice and really comfortable. But Joel wasn't kidding in his description of his saw when he said the handle was small. Not small in the sense of space for your fingers as it's about the same size as most of my other saws in this regard, however, it is thinner when finished. I haven't used it much yet but my initial impressions are that this will force a more relaxed grip on the saw and hence a more fluid and relaxed sawing stroke.

Exactly what I found. Also, the horns did pinch my paw, which made me straighten my grip.
(Ridiculously, this helped my handsaw technique most, until a session last month with Woodbloke (a tutor here in the UK) sorted out my stance.)

Cheers
Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Inspiring

I have been wanting to do something like this for a long time.

Just got to trim down that honey do list and finish off a few other projects to find a bit more time to take on such a challenge.

Gee, now that I'm retired, I wonder how did I ever find time to go to work?

jim

[Phillip Pattee]

Rob, Nice job. You are very encouraging. I've been contemplating making a dovetail saw for several months now. I planned on cutting a groove in a piece of brass bar stock for the back, but I also wondered about a folded steel back. You have provided a solution. Thanks for the post.

Ray,
Thanks for the link -- great resource for handle templates!

[Alan DuBoff]

I like the London Pattern handle on that Davenport a lot. In fact, that is the style I was planning to use on the longer tenon saw I'm planning in the near future. Would you mind sharing the pattern of it once you have it done?

I will do that, for certain, give me a couple days to finalize the template and scan it (I don't have a scanner on my computer, but my son does).

I was going to work from pictures but it's difficult to really get a feel for scale from pictures. Having an original to copy is much better. My other thought was to ask Mike if he had patterns for the Kenyon sash and tenon handles he wouldn't mind sharing but I know these are kind of proprietary property.

Shouldn't be, it's only a handle design. I would suspect these patents/copyrights would have long expired...if they even existed to begin with (I don't think so). The Davenport might have existed before patents were started, and they were from the U.K., so I wonder how that would work???? I think we're safe to share them, if inclined.

[Larry Browning]

This is a very interesting thread. Who woulda thunk it that you could make your own saw. I think I understand how everything is done, except the most important part. How do you get all those tiny teeth cut, then sharpened and then bent to just the right angle? Do you take it to a machine shop or somehow do it yourself?

Now this may very well be my 1st post in neanderthal haven, so be gentle.