Pentz has me Bummed Out

[Eric Schniewind]

I'm putting together my first shop. It will be a fairly standard weekender shop that I'm putting in the basement. I've read some postings here and then got directed over to Bill Pentz website. It seems he's fairly controversial but he sure paints a dismal picture for a guy like me trying to pursue a part time hobby on a budget.

I guess I can see about venting DC outside but I'm in a residential neighborhood that might not allow it. And I'm not sure even how to find that out. Plus I don't like the idea of spewing sawdust out into the yard.

I seem to recall last year's FWW tool issue suggesting that you get a 1 micron filter DC system but Pentz seems to think that alone is not nearly enough and would be endangering the whole household.

I realize that dust is a health issue but I've always that the real danger is for the full time professional.

Any input greatly appreciated.

[Jamie Buxton]

Bill has lots of good advice, but you're right, he sometimes seems a downer. Just remember that there are many many many hobby woodworkers like you who ain't dead yet. Take his advice and try to reduce your exposure to dust. But don't get scared off the hobby.

[Jim O'Dell]

A lot of depends on you and me. Are either of us allergic to the wood dust? Will either of us develop an allergy to wood dust? In my conversations with Bill, and reading his site and and the notes he has written here and the other wood forums, Bill didn't start out with problems, they developed over time. But think about it...many people develop allergies as they grow older. I know I wasn't allergic to mountain cedar until in my 20's. Then every year for 7 years straight, I lost my voice right at Black Friday time...I was in retail sales as a full commission salesman...Selling stereo equipment!!

Take what Bill says and apply it to YOU as it fits. Not everyone will have the problems he has...it came too close to killing him. That is why he is so passionate about this subject. He has found something that works for his problems, problems that are on the far end of the scale, and he has a mission of sharing that information with anyone who will listen. I listened.

The best dust collection will cost you some money. But I ended up with a cyclone built on Bill's design, in a small shop (20 X 24) for about 13 or 1400.00 (including the duct work). It would be a little higher than that now as prices have gone up a lot. Many opt to make their cyclone based on his design, You still have to purchase the motor and fan, but it drastically reduces the cost if you are willing to work some metal.

Best advice I can give you is to get the best filters you can afford on the dust collector you can get in your price range. If you can afford a cyclone and will be able to exhaust outside, you can forgo the filters. I do this, and I dare anyone to find dust outside my shop where I exhaust. (but then I haven't over filled my chip/dust barrel yet! ) Be careful that you have a good supply of fresh air for what you lose exhausting. If your space is heated/cooled, you will need to use filters to keep that conditioned air inside your home. If you heat with gas, be especially careful.

But your neighbors might have a problem with the noise. If so, you will be forced to use filters to help with the noise level. Again, get the best you can afford.

Doing something is better than doing nothing unless all you do is stir up more of the fine dust than you collect. But I felt is was important enough that I put off getting a cabinet saw to have the cyclone in place. I figure I will finally get the cab saw in 2009. Jim.

[Jason Beam]

I like what Bill has to say. I think his perspective is from firsthand health problems caused by the dust as well as a previous injury. His advice, for me, is one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum are the guys who say "Ah just hold yer breath till the saw's off!". I choose my position in that spectrum using those extremes and set my goals accordingly.

If you want to breath NO sawdust, then find a different hobby. It all comes down to goals. I accept a little sawdust, as everything carries risks, and we all must choose our level of acceptable risk. For me, that's a very blury and subjective line. I shoot for "Most bang for the buck" and accept the shortcomings of those choices.

[Chris Padilla]

I met Bill Pentz earlier this summer and he admits that he is fully aware of how scary he makes ww'ing sound. The thing is, it IS very scary for him. Everyone is different and will react differently.

Some people smoke for 60 years and die natural deaths. Others second-hand smoke for 10 years and have lung cancer or emphysema and die in their mid-30s.

We've all taken a faceful of wood dust or been sawin' for several hours and start hacking or coughing or maybe your nose runs a bit or your nose even burns a bit. We all know breathing in this stuff can't possibly be good but we'll all react different to it.

As Jamie said, just do your best to limit breathing this stuff in and odds are you'll probably be fine.

I have one of BP's designed DCs and spent the Turkey holiday resawing black walnut. My nose burned a bit and I had a gravelly cough for a day so now I know for future walnut dealings, I'd better toss a face mask on. I also know that I want to improve airflow in my gara...err...shop to also help things.

If you really want to avoid sawdust...go the full Neander route and avoid tools with tails (i.e. cords that need electricity!!)

[Matt Benton]

You don't have to pollute the neighborhood. Get either a cyclone or use Phil Thien's separator to capture the sawdust, so that the air you blow outside will be "virtually" dust-free.

This will also increase your cfm compared to blowing through a filter...

[Jack Porter]

You can build your own DC for pretty cheap if you don't mind some metal work, you can use Bill's plans or Wood Mags cyclone plans. I built wood mags and it's worked out really well. I direct exhaust outside and it does not make much noise, and zero dust. I bough a particle counter just to gauge if dust is slightly, moderatley, or extremely elevated during certain operations. If I notice particle counts really skyrocket during certain procedures (many cuts at the miter saw) I try to adjust the operation (build a dust hood) to reduce the airborne dust to only a slight increase.

Also, personally I like to work with the overhead doors open during any weather except freezing. Keeping a fan going at the back of the shop along with the DC pretty much eliminates anything over a slight particle increase.

Just some food for thought. Remember to listen to your body, if you notice problems; coughing, sneezing, wheezing, etc... you might want to take additional precautions.

[Mike Schueler]

Myself and whole family are pretty much cheap.

I am close to finalizing a fairly good DC setup for about $1500 close to in line with Pentz's ideas:

1. I am buying a 2 hp grizzly cyclone. I could get away with the 1.5 hp, but the hose diameter is 5 inches.

2. Instead of the expensive metal pipe they have (which is no doubt excellent), I am buying 6 inch PVC pipe for a lot cheaper (check out http://www.mcmaster.com/#, clink on pipes fittings and pipes, then plastic pipes, the look for view catalog pages in itty bitty letters in upper right, the go to page 66. Scroll to the bottom).

3. Instead of the expensive and worthwhile submicron filters, I am going to vent the hose outside unless it's raining.

4. The more I think about it, unless you put the machine outside, not many people will know you are venting outside since there won't be much dust at all in the final exhaust with a cyclone. You can probably get away with snaking the hose out a window, or attaching it to a vent like a dryer vent.

I have a really long post already on my own woes, and I think $1500 is the cheapest I can get it and still have air quality like Pentz's. However, I will wait to order the shark thing he mentions for the table saw.

If you don't feel like spending the cash on that now (like me for 2 yrs now), get a couple of "mystery" bronchitis cases, have your wife fret, get a normal chest xray, then get it.

[Yuchol Kim]

I hear he designed Grizzly cyclones and he's the authority in dust collection theory.

[Chris Damm]

I have a 3hp twin 1 micron bag DC. I find that I have very little dust in my shop (think normal household) after spending countless hours in my workshop (I'm retired). I get a little sawdust from my drillpress (no dust collection) and my tablesaw (which will go away after I install over the blade collecttion).

[Matt Benton]

I think I take the cake in cheap/efficiency ratio. HF 2 hp dust collector for $120 on sale and the cyclone being sold on ebay for $140 with MS cashback. I will be wheeling my tools to the dc, so I will only have 1 short run of 6" pvc, and will also be venting outside to maximize cfm's. I'm still waiting on the cyclone to be delivered, but I'm hoping to have a pretty sufficient system for around $300...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Eric, I have a basement shop and converted from a single stage collector to an Oneida cyclone 6 years ago.

What a difference!

I collect dust at the source, which doesn't let it get into the air I'm breathing, or sharing with the house.

I have an overarm guard for my table saw, along with a connection to the saw cabinet. The collection is terrific.

Others tools such as saw/shaper etc also have collection.

As someone who wasted money by spending too little at the beginning, i'd suggest that you evaluate what size cyclone you need and purchase it.

I and my brother are extremely pleased with our Oneida machines, and I'm sure many creekers are also.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Eric, learn from Pentz, but don't let dust control become your hobby instead of woodworking. His knowledge of this issue is epic, but I think he obseses. Pentz pointed out some things that I would have missed when I started, like the danger of my old Delta portable wannabe dust collectors lousy bag actually being a very efficient dust spreader. Or how to actually collect dust from the tablesaw. Heck of a resource, but incorporate his principals to the depth that you need.

One great effect he has had on our hobby is the desire of really good dust collectors. Ten years ago, the purchasing options where very limited, but through his bully pulpit he has raised our level of understanding to the point that the manufactures can't expect to sell crap anymore.

This hobby is a budget disaster, and this subject is another reason why. Having been where you are now, I can say this, figure out how buy a great D/C system and you will never regret it. It is also the easiest tool purchase to sell your wife on

[Adam Cavaliere]

It is also the easiest tool purchase to sell your wife on

I have to second that...

[Thomas Pender]

Having communicated with Mr. Pentz and taken much of his advice, I still agree with most who say do the best you can and enjoy our hobby, regardless of your fears. Like others have said, woodworking is a budget buster and dust collection is one of the busters. Neverthless, I think most of us will, if not now, eventually owe Mr. Pentz and debt of gratitude. He has done so much and like all folks with an obsession (deserved or not) his views can be rather "focused."

All that aside, once I put in my Oneida Cyclone, the amount of dust in my shop dropped noticeably. It smells cleaner, I dont' have to blow my nose nearly as much, and it is easier to keep the shop clean. My only regret is that I had done it sooner.

One thing I would offer that Bill does advise - keep the dust hoses as big as you can as long as you can. I wish the tool manufacturers would put 5" or bigger ports on the tools instead of 4".