cyclone blower fan question - excuse ignorance please

[mike lucas]

Thanks for the replies! It looks like I will be saving the monster motor for yet another project.

No hard feelings here, I know how to cut and weld steel, I know nothing about cyclone`s. That is the reason I posted! I wanted/needed to find out from the one`s here that know about how Cyclones are built, and how they work.

The reason I was looking in to up sizing this was because sometimes two machines are running at once, and I thought that you add the 2 together to figure out how much dust collecting power one needs.
As for buying a large one, the one I looked at was more then $4500, and that did not include any duct work.

If you all (Mainly the resident expert Bill Pentz) think the 5 hp 18" is about right then, that is all bigger I want. I was not real excited about the 46 Amps that 15 hp motor was going to pull.

If I read you correctly Bill, you are saying that I need to neck down the duct some? If all the trunk line is 6", should I use the dust pickup that came with the machine? even if it is 2", 3", or 4"?

Thanks again!
one more thing, how about having it outside? Isn't the Leeson 5hp open drip proof? Would you recommend building a roof over it?

[Scott Coffelt]

No, actually what I believe Bill was saying is run 6" to all machines if at all possible. Now, some machines just aren't adaptable for 6", so design it that it still gets 6" of air (i.e., have a wye that opens both if you need to compress to a 2" adapter like a CMS or something). Alternative is to open two gates at once, I do this from time to time when I need to use a tool that can only accept a 2" or 4" port.

[Bill Pentz]

Scott is correct on the machine port sizing. Go to each with 6" and if you cannot connect, then use an open wye connector.

The open-drip proof Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp) that I recommend is not what I would pick for outdoor use, even with a cover. I personally would go for a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor of the same size. Ask Barry at Electric Motor Warehouse what he would recommend.

bill

[mike lucas]

Scott is correct on the machine port sizing. Go to each with 6" and if you cannot connect, then use an open wye connector.

The open-drip proof Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp) that I recommend is not what I would pick for outdoor use, even with a cover. I personally would go for a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor of the same size. Ask Barry at Electric Motor Warehouse what he would recommend.

bill

Thanks Bill!
There are many woodworkers that Appreciate all that you have put in to the dust collecting subject. It is an honor to read your work.
Thanks again!

Mike Lucas

One other thing;
On the system I currentlly use, I have to open all the gates a very small amount in order to help stop the hose/pipe from getting plugged. Will Bill`s design Cyclone have this problem?

Also, several years ago, when I first started using a dust collector, I had a fire under the table saw caused by what looked like blue lightening inside all the hoses. (which I quickly put out) After that I placed 14g bare wire in all the hoses. (Most of my duct was 4" plastic hoses) I have now read through Bill`s pages what seems like a dozen times, and if I understand it correctly, The wire needs to be on the outside. Is this correct?

Thanks once again!

Mike Lucas

[Bill Pentz]

One other thing;
On the system I currentlly use, I have to open all the gates a very small amount in order to help stop the hose/pipe from getting plugged. Will Bill`s design Cyclone have this problem?

This problem is caused by using small downdrops going to a larger main. All should be the same size in a hobbyist system where only one duct at a time is open.

Also, several years ago, when I first started using a dust collector, I had a fire under the table saw caused by what looked like blue lightening inside all the hoses. (which I quickly put out) After that I placed 14g bare wire in all the hoses. (Most of my duct was 4" plastic hoses) I have now read through Bill`s pages what seems like a dozen times, and if I understand it correctly, The wire needs to be on the outside. Is this correct?

Although I don't doubt you had a fire, I strongly suspect it did not come from static electricity. It is more likely than not that you either launched a spark from cutting through a nail or other piece of metal.
No that is not correct. Plastic is an insulator so attaching a grounding wire will only bleed off a little of the static charge in a local area. Putting it outside the pipe only helps take care of the outside. If you look at my Ducting Pages - Static Electricity you will see the only way I have found or heard of that reliably drains off the static and does not cause ongoing problems with building up dust piles and debris on the interior wires.
bill

[Scott Parks]

and I came accross this thread. I've been following Bill's website for 3 years, and plan to buy Sheldon's airfoil impeller, and use the Delta 2hp motor. The reason for me choosing this combo is because I only have a 15amp 110v circuit for my DC. If I use an extension cord accross the garage, I could use a 20amp curcuit. I'm severely power limited in my garage.

Just wanted an update from those who have built this. Anyway, my question is, for those who have done this combo, is it still working out okay? How is your performance? Is the Delta motor good and reliable? Or is it worth stepping up to the Leeson 5hp motor? I'm hesitant to go to the Leeson 5hp due to my lack of electricity power.
Thanks...

[Norman Hitt]

and I came accross this thread. I've been following Bill's website for 3 years, and plan to buy Sheldon's airfoil impeller, and use the Delta 2hp motor. The reason for me choosing this combo is because I only have a 15amp 110v circuit for my DC. If I use an extension cord accross the garage, I could use a 20amp curcuit. I'm severely power limited in my garage.

Just wanted an update from those who have built this. Anyway, my question is, for those who have done this combo, is it still working out okay? How is your performance? Is the Delta motor good and reliable? Or is it worth stepping up to the Leeson 5hp motor? I'm hesitant to go to the Leeson 5hp due to my lack of electricity power.
Thanks...

Scott, I'm no motor expert, but I think that if you use the same diameter size impeller the other guys are using and try to run it with a 2 hp motor, it will still try to pull the amps necessary to turn that impeller, which will probably exceed it's design amperage, overheat, and probably self destruct,.... Unless, that 2 hp motor has a much greater effeciency rating than the 5 hp compressor rated (probably 3 hp actual) motor, and I don't think it does.

The amp draw shown on a motor plate is what it is expected to draw at it's rated hp, but if the LOAD the motor is trying to pull requires more hp than the motor in use, the motor will continue to draw more and more amps to try to pull that load, hence the over amp situation.

Hopefully one of the motor experts will get on here and explain it better.

Cheers, and Saw Safe..........Norm

[Ron Schweitzer]

Scott,
If the 2 HP delta motor you are referring to is the one goodmember (?) sells/sold it is a 220 volt motor, I think any true 2 HP motor will be the same.
My model number is 62-185.
Here is a picture of the plate.
Ron
Edit: I pulled the pic as I was having problems posting pic in another thread, I thought I might be using to much space, it didn't help.

[Bill Pentz]

I have carefully tested the Sheldon's impeller and many other 14" impellers in different cyclone configurations. The highest amperage draw I have been able to get a Sheldon's 14" material handling (MH) impeller to pull when connected to a cyclone without filters or ducting was only 9.2 amps. The average draw at working pressures ranges from 6.2 to 8.8 amps. All are well within the 10 amps that the Delta 2 hp motors are rated. In short, that motor should run this impeller all day long without a problem from trying to move too much air. You still should use an amp meter to verify there is not a problem with your particular configuration.

Unfortunately, I still recommend the much heavier Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp). Single phase induction motors take a huge beating when starting even with minimal load. When you add a really heavy impeller with large vanes on it, you significantly increase the startup loads. I have seen my digital meter show startup draws for an instant well over four times running amperage. These loads are typical in a compressor and compressor motors are built to start with these kinds of loads. Frankly, so is the Delta 2 hp motor to a degree because it was engineered to start while moving a heavy planer cutter assembly.

I have not heard of anyone having problems with the Delta motors dying during use, but have heard people have killed the Delta, Leeson, and even Baldor motors if they constantly turn their dust collection on and off. At one time I found on both the Baldor and Leeson motor sites information that said you can damage the motor if you cycle them on and off more than six times an hour. One recommended to limit the start stops to no more than four times an hour.

It kind of becomes your call trading off cost versus reliability and available power in choosing between these motor solutions. Although I have both Delta and Leeson motors for testing, I personally prefer and when my cyclone is up, use a larger Baldor pump motor (also made for high startup loads), because it makes less noise.

bill pentz

[Ron Schweitzer]

Thanks Bill, I bought the Delta 2 HP thinking I'd build your airfoil blower but then I bought the Clarke blower housing and found out it was designed for a 14" MH impeller.
I didn't think the 2 HP could survive the load a 14" Shelden impeller would place on it.
I'll give it a try and I guess I won't be out anything other then my labor if it smokes.
Ron

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Bill and others,

With my 5HP Leeson and Sheldon 14" impeller my amp draw is around 15 amps with no filters and about 10 feet of 8" ducting. This is also sucking around 1700cfm at that point too.

The amp draw numbers will come down when the ducting and filters are in place, but I thought I'd mention it to reinforce the fact you really need to have an ammeter in your hand when you play with this stuff.

The 5HP Leeson motor is a little different from the 2HP Delta with the fact that the Leeson will draw almost 7 amps with NO load. I found that during testing and was shocked. I went to the Leeson web site and their info matched my results.

So you can't always compare amp draw between completely different motors.

Just thought I'd throw more confusion out there to make you use an ammeter. Better safe than sorry!

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

I understand that 3-phase motors do just fine with constant off/on situations as one might find in a hobbyist's shop/garage. Too bad most of us do not have easy/cheap access to 3-phase power....

[Chris Padilla]

Hello Folks,

I thought I might as well continue my cyclone put-together in this thread so I'm bringing it back from the depths of the GW & PT forum!

I'm now in the hanging phase of the cyclone and thus have been working with the impeller housing.

My first attempt to hang this didn't go well and in the end, I tore it all down to do it "more correctly." Had I been thinking correctly, I would have had this all done before having the drywall put up but oh well....

To do it "more correctly," I ended up removing a small section of drywall to access the rafters more cleanly and attached cross-members and hang threaded rod (3/8" 16 tpi). I plan to add some vibrational hangers as well but the threaded rod served to get the placement correct.

[Chris Padilla]

Next, I wired up the electricals and remote control for the DC.

The use of a simple lamp or light control module and a contactor with a 120 Vac coil controlling a 240 V, 30 A switch and I now can turn on my DC with the touch of a remote control! I decided to hang the light control module out on a piece of 2x4 to ensure good EM access for the remote control. Some of the drywall I used in the garage is a special soundproof kind and it contains some metal layers in it so I wanted to keep this module away from it.

The extra white rip cord is from a small 8" fan that I will place up near the motor to keep some air on it in hopes to keep it from ever overheating on me. Since I'm cramming the motor as near the roof as possible, I thought this might be a good idea. The fan will also be on the same remote control.

The wiring for the motor will connect to the two terminals at the top of the contactor and enter in the lower right section of the box. The 120 Vac coil is connected to the light control module (the black/white/green 16/3 orange cord) and the 240 Vac line in (black/red, #10) connects to one side of the switch.

Next, hanging the fully-assembled cyclone! I still need to figure out my ducting (I've decide to go PVC for mine) and pick up some filters for the exhaust.

To continue....

[Jim Becker]

Looks good, Chris. I'm sure you already thought of it, but you might consider having a few very brawny friends available for the "hanging"...that's a LONG way up!