Am I being too anal?

[Todd Burch]

I've recently had an email exchange with a prospective client who will remain anonymous. It didn't result in business, as you will see below. My question to you is should I have given this person a price based on the information that they supplied?

My feelings are that some clients want me to be a designer, an engineer, a magician, a mind reader and be low cost producer, all for the low cost producer price. You read the exchange and offer me your candid and objective opinions.

THANKS!



From Prospect:
I need 35 slide lid boxes. They need to be 18"w x 18"l x 4"d - with the lid on the 18 x 18 side! Can you help me?
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From me:
I don't know if I can help you. What's your budget? What material? What finish? What joinery? What timefame?
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From Prospect:
I am looking to you for a price to create my budget. Pine would be fine. Joinery-I don't care as long as it has a slide lid. No finish. How long would it take?
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From me:
I cannot give you a price until you give me either plans or full specifications for the box. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to design a box for you for free. If you want to send me a check for $60, I would be happy to design your box and create plans.
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From Prospect:
I need 35 wooden slide lid boxes, pine stock, join then as simply as possible (we are going to paint them). The box needs to be 18" x 18" x 4" with the slide lid being on the 18 x 18 side. I don't have a budget, I need a price. I would need the boxes 3 weeks from the date we place the order.
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From me:
Are these disposable boxes? Are you wanting an heirloom or cheap as possible? Do you care that 18" wide pine lid will warp or that the bottom will split? How thick material? Do you care about exposed nails, or do I fill, and sand? What grade of pine? Do you care about knots or placement of knots? To what grit do you want these sanded, or do you want them sanded? Do you want sharp corners that will splinter or rounded over? If rounded over, what radius or profile? What type of grip do you want on the sliding lid? Do you want them nailed or nailed and glued or just glued?

There I go - designing your box. :-)

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From Prospect:
So sorry to take up your time. Just wanted a price range. Please forget I contacted you.

[Greg Heppeard]

LMAO....I think you scared them. I think the questions you asked were legit. The only thing I might have done different was to suggest a simple box with rabbet joints and using clear pine or possibly poplar. Poplar takes paint better. From the sound of the prospect, they are probably a tole (sp?) painter, they tend not to be too picky about the unfinished product. They're pretty good at taking a crappy little thing and making it look pretty. Not that they do crappy work, just that they are good at making things look nice with paint.

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
You don't need to get every project. You are a true crafstman and the your clients are lucky....you have to go with your gut feel.

[John Weber]

I think he may or may not have had the cash, but didn't really know what he wanted. I might have shot him a high dollar for a middle of the road paint grade box, primed and ready for paint. No spend to much time, but a decent quality unit. Tough call, you might have also said a prototype would be available after the deposit was made. Could have been a corporate flunky, trying to buy something he knows nothing about, or a craft group looking for the cheapest thing they can fine, who knows. I think you handled it fine, asking for more info so everyone is on the same page is never a bad thing, your prospect just needed a clue.

John

[Tony Falotico]

Todd, if there was one thing I learned after 6 years as a freelance consulting engineer, it was that there were some 'clientèle' out there that I just didn't want. My Dad & I had some deep discussions about that, his theory was that you take everything that comes your way.

If you want to be a professional ______________ (fill in the blank: engineer, woodworker, architect, craftsman ........) you have to stick to professional clientèle. There are way to many creeps out there who will gladly drag you into the gutter with them.

Todd, you are a professional who does outstanding work, As Mark said above "go with your gut feel" and don't waste your time and talent looking back.

[Dennis Peacock]

Todd,

You prospect was a little vague on details. I belive I would have figured up a poplar box with dado joints for the dividers and simple butt joints for the box sides, figured materials for each box and provided a higher than normal price quote for the job on a per box basis. A simple square wooden handle for the box lid and nothing more.

As much work as you have, I don't think I would worry about this too much. I feel you did just fine and remained in the true craftsman area of questions and expertise. The prospect just really didn't know how to correspond with you clearly enough to provide what you were asking.

Don't worry about it....you did fine.

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
The interview process is a 2 way street. The potential client gets a feeling for you and you formulate one of them. If they get negative feelings during the interview....you don't get the job. If you get negative feelings you shouldn't want to do the job. A few years ago, I was designing an ocean front home for a couple. Each meeting with them was worse than the previous until I sent the retainer back and said, "I am not enjoying this experience, Please find another architect" Two days latter, I got a call from a wonderful repeat client....they just bought an ocean front lot! It sounds a bit like Depac Chopra....but it is true and it has worked for me repeatedly over the years. I won't do a project if I don't get my fee, don't like the people, don't like the site, don't think the budget is ample, etc. Now that sounds pompus. Actually what happens is you start getting great projects that lead to other great projects and you don't have to do the mediocre crap. It takes a while to achieve...but it is the direction you want to go 100% . It really works. You will love your projects ...your clients will appreciate you and as with all great craftsman you will rise to the top ...where you Todd should, without question,be.

[Perry Schmidt]

One of the most frustrating things I experience is calling and trying to get a 'ballpark' on a car repair. 'I know it's the AC compressor...give me a broad range as what it will cost to replace it...'. Or 'cost to replace the side mirror'. I'm just trying to figure out how much $$$ I'll need before taking it in. And the 'big shops' won't give you any figure to work with at all. (I've 'fired' 2 shops in the last 10 years b/c they stopped giving me ballpark numbers. The last one I very specifically asked what it would cost to replace an alternator on a Chev. Blazer. They wouldn't even give me that w/out bringing it in and charging me $50 to 'figure out' that was the problem. But I digress...)

Point in this?? Maybe he was looking for a range. Now given that he had enough specifications (a pretty exact size, lid, etc.) I would think he could have answered your questions better. So in this specific case - I think you saved a lot of headaches by walking away.

BUT I can sort of see his side - many times I'm looking for a really rough estimate JUST to get some idea. So some response like "basic box, joinery w/ nails, pine...$XX/box. To a nice finish, heirloom joinery, etc...$XX/box". Some rough box type/range quotes might have been helpful to him.

I think - given he wasn't answering any questions, not even a 'I'm using it for this' to try to help you out...I'm thinking this would have been trouble.

My 2 cents (from a customer point of view

Hope that helps.

Perry

[Martin Shupe]

Todd,

It seems to me, that if you are going to give a quote, which the customer will expect you to honor, that you cannot do so without accurate information about what is expected of you.

Having said that, you might have high balled the heck out of them, and, if they were a corporate representative, "looking to create a budget", they might have created a budget to cover your "high" estimate.

Then again, they might have been somebody looking for the cheapest price, and they would have taken your estimate to someone else and said, "Todd can do it for $xx.xx, can you beat his price?"

Todd, those of us on this board admire your professionalism and your outstanding work. I am sure once a few people look at that ceiling you posted, you will have more work than you can stand.

Were you too anal? I vote no.

P. S. Don't forget to claim your "free stuff".

[Ian Barley]

Todd

First thing to say - you did the right thing. Giving ballpark figures based on very limited information is always too risky and leads to arguments.

Your prospect should at least have given you the details of intended purpose - from that it becomes possible to deduce lots about the construction.

From the stuff that I see you make this doesn't sound like the kind of work that will best use your clear skills in design, construction and finishing.

The only thing I wouldn't have done is the sentence "There I go - designing your box. :-)". I'm pretty sure that you were being friendly and trying to lighten the exchange when you put it there but read in an email (even with a smiling emoticon) it looks sarcastic. As a customer I don't spend my money with sarcastic suppliers. Thats the problem with email as communication - no facial expression - no tone of voice.

You and I both know that we don't need to get every one and this looks like it had the makings of a nest of trouble - who needs it?

Ian

[David Klink]

I build and sell lighthouses for people's yards in the summer. I generally build them and prime them, and let people paint them as they will, unless they're cedar. Then I seal them and sell them natural.

Last year, I had 2 that people reneged on advertised in the paper to get them out of here. A man called, and he wanted a custom one. He wanted it 6 feet tall, and he wanted it painted. I explained to him about the priming part, but he wanted it finished. I told him I would charge him $30 over the price I quoted him for the cost of the paint and the time to do it. He said fine.

He came to pick it up after it was done, and started to back off because he didn't like the shade of the paint. The kicker? He wanted it painted white with black trim. He said it didn't look like the white was very white, and the black wasn't the shade he had in mind. I showed him the paint cans, which clearly stated WHITE and BLACK on them. He proceeded to describe how he had painted his house white with black trim, and how the colors didn't look the same.

He ended up taking it, but if he hadn't driven 25 miles to come get the thing, I wonder if he would have.

[Tyler Howell]

Todd!
The term "pinched-up" is more politically correct.
When I hung out a shingle for "other stuff" and had a PIA customer that I wanted to go away, I ran the price way up. Everytime they took it, I delivered.... my way and they were happy???? Go Figure.
You're a pro. Don't dumb down your quality for the PIA. Give them the price for the good stuff.

[Glenn Clabo]

Todd,
From what I've seen you are far better than just a cheap box maker. If you did anything wrong (which doesn't matter now) you tried to explain what you are. If it were me...I would have presented a price for boxes of a quality that fits your talent. If it was out out the "budget" range...so be it.

I've said it before to you...don't go below your talent...charge what you need to...and you'll continue to get work and more importantly make yourself happy. Don't let the paycheck become the reward for your work. You're too good to go cheap.

[Donnie Raines]

Todd,

What they said, plus....

My feelings when reading the thread was that this person was not really on the market for these boxes...they were doing the "leg work" for someone else. I provide quotes all day long(insurance), and some will say yes, some no and some will say yes, but you can tell it is really a no...simply through "buy signs". And I seen no buy signs in this persons statement to you. Heck, i have had people tell me that they would do buisness with me, I get all the papers in line for the closeing, and then they call and say that their comapny is going to lower my rates becuase they "appreciate my buisness". Well..it does not work that way. Companines cannot "rebate" their rates to gain or maintain a client. Bottom line..they were lying. And I susepct this person was misleading you too.

You did the right thing....

[Earl Kelly]

Todd, the one thing I would have done is, tell them to call me @ xxx-xxx-xxxx And have a face to face over the phone. This is so much better than email. It sounded like a "junk" job you wouldn't want anyway, but you never know.