Waxed Shellac + Sealer?

[Chris Jenkins]

Looks like my finishing options are VERY limited as I have little time till X-Mass. The project is done and I was going to use Bullseye Amber Shellac with about 3 - 4 coats of General Finishes Oil & Urethane. Till I just learned that the Amber Shellac has wax in it.

Can I put the Oil & Urethane over Shellac containing Wax? I thought no?

I know the Bullseye Sanding Sealer is free of wax and I could tint it to get the amber hew I want, but I don't have any Trans Tint nor do I have access to it in time.

Could I put a small MinWax Sample Dye packet and mix with the sanding sealer? The project is quite small so I don't need much more then a few drops.

Also I just did a test run with only oil and urethane to see the color and I think the product is shot. I had to scrape the skin off, but it is thick like syrup or maybe even molasses. I want to guess this product is a good 3 yrs old. Should I toss it and get some new? I'm afraid it won't cure.

Thanks,

Chris

[Joe Chritz]

Generally speaking you can apply non-poly varnish over regular shellac. I am not familiar with the finish you plan on using (or did before it went bad) so I don't know about that one.

Since you need to get some new finish anyway order up some shellac flakes in the hue that you want and just use the proper dewaxed to start with.

Sanding sealer is a marketing scheme. With the possible exception of a vinyl sealer under some commercial finishes it doesn't really do anything special. I use dewaxed shellac as a sealer on almost every project. Yes you can tint nearly anything with transtint.

Joe

[Charles Saunders]

Chris, I used essentially your proposed finish schedule on the cabinet I posted a few weeks back. I used Bulls Eye amber shellac as a barrier coat following stain, but I didn't stir it prior to use. That leaves most of the wax at the bottom of the can - but I still got the benefit of the amber color. I sanded it after a few hours and then used GF oil & poly finishes for top coats (satin on everything but the top, for which I used the semi-gloss).

Published finishing experts often warn not to use shellac that's more than 6 months old, but I think that's an area where your mileage could vary. Zinsser stamps that "born on" date on the can. Although their claim is that their product is still usable for up to two years after manufacture, I would test before committing it to a project.

My assumption has been that Bulls Eye Sanding Sealer is a light cut of dewaxed clear shellac. Hope this is helpful.

[Howard Acheson]

Let's keep is short and (maybe not so) sweet.

>> Can I put the Oil & Urethane over Shellac containing Wax?

No, the product is a thinned polyurethane varnish so can not be put over a wax containing shellac. Also, it's intended to be put over virgin wood so the oil can be absorbed.

>> I had to scrape the skin off, but it is thick like syrup or maybe even molasses. I want to guess this product is a good 3 yrs old. Should I toss it and get some new?

Throw it out and get fresh. It's no good and you don't want to be cheap on finish when you've spent all this time so far. If you are planning to use Seal A Cel, you don't need a sealer coat of shellac. Just go with the Seal A Cel.

[Joe Fusco]

Chris,

Sure you can and your project will look just great.

For at least 9 years now I've been countering the folks that say you can't because (insert your own/any reasons here). Shellac is just a great product to use for so many different things and when its got a little wax in it, it sands great.

13 years ago I made 52 tables for a German eatery and to this day after daily use and cleaning with all types of chemicals not a single finish failure. The finishing schedule was simple; a double spit coat of "out of the can waxed shellac" and three costs of gloss Minwax poly.

http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/...d_shellac.html

[Steve Schoene]

While using a polyurethane varnish over shellac with it's natural wax isn't an immediate death sentence for the finish, there are plenty of examples where it has reduced adhesion compared with using a non-polyurethane varnish. Since furniture doesn't need polyurethane substitute a good varnish, such as Behlen Rockhard, or Waterlox Gloss and don't run any risk. It's still not a good practice to temp fate, even if sometimes you do get away with it, it's still not the way to bet.

[Joe Fusco]

Hardly a test of fate or a long shot bet, just countless projects (by me and I'm sure many others as well) and never a failure.

[Steve Schoene]

It's not a matter of being a long shot bet, it's matter of there being any edge at all in favor of using dewaxed shellac. Why, because there is almost no advantage running the otherway in favor of using shellac thacontains it's natural wax. Trivial cost difference, just about all colors (short of really coarse seedlac or buttonlac) are available with dewaxed as well as waxed.

If there were no difference, there would be no reason for varnish makers, shellac makers, makers of waterborne finishes, for professional finishers such as Jeff Jewitt, and Bob Flexner, to express a clear preference. It takes more than one ora handfull of stubborn cabinetmakers to overturn the almost universal opinion of experts.

[Prashun Patel]

Chris,

If it were me, I wouldn't use the old topcoat. Since I'd buy fresh, I'd just go with an alkyd varnish or a spar varnish - not a spar urethane. I've found HD's don't carry much alkyd or phenolic varnish; LWS and Ace sell Cabot (red = alkyd) (green=spar). Ace also has their own vsn of spar (green). Ace's (orange) 'varnish' is really part poly, so I wouldn't use that.

I've used all the above products to good effect. I prefer to thin and wipe them (if yr using gloss). If yr using satin, I highly suggest brushing it stirred, unthinned. I haven't been able to wipe satin well; I suspect it's because the thickeners are too dense and don't distribute well when the varnish is thinned.

If the application is not gonna see significant direct water exposure, then you might just continue with yr shellac. It's actually fairly durable and rubs out (4x0 Steel wool + paste wax) so easy for novices like me.

If $$ and time is NOT an issue, I'd go with Waterlox though. That stuff brushes on like glass.

[Joe Fusco]

The simple fact the "experts" recommend a particular "thing" or practice is most often a matter of marketing and not always the most accurate.

[Joe Chritz]

It is all a matter of "calculated risk". Lots of finishers, including some professional finishers I have read about on other forums have used regular bullseye shellac under all kinds of finishes all the time.

Chances are very high you won't get an adverse reaction with regular shellac. Chances are zero you will with de-waxed.

Before dewaxed shellac was readily available pre-mixed there could be a very big advantage to using regular but now they are a few feet apart on the shelf in gallon cans.

I have gotten great finishes with dust all over the floor in the finish room but I still vacuum before I do projects whenever possible.

Joe

[Steve Schoene]

It just doesn't make sense to recommend the less reliable practice. Sure, if you want to get away with something with your own customers for some reason, go ahead and use the waxed shellac under polyurethane varnish, or under waterborne finishes. But it takes only one call back--ever--to negate whatever supposed advantage that shortcut might give.

And, the failures may not be clear cut--not like having the varnish showing fisheyes, but just deteriorating a bit more rapidly down the road, with some flakeing of the finish 20 years from now that might not have occurred otherwise. Not something you would attribute to using shellac with wax, unless you had done systematic scientific testing. The manufacturers can do those tests, it pays to listen, especially when what they are recommending is that you NOT buy their product for certain applications.

[Joe Fusco]

It just doesn't make sense to recommend the less reliable practice.

From who's vantage point, not mine, maybe yours. From mine it's 100% since in over 25 years I've never had a failure. I've had more trouble with doing other finishes "by the book" than with the use of regular shellac.

As I recall you've never done it, so you have no practical experience in it other then what you've gather through "experts" and the technical writing of manufactures.

[Jim Becker]

Ok, folks...both camps have spoken. There is no point in arguing over this.

Jim
SMC Moderator