How are we to know, we aren't sitting in his shop watching him work every day? Thus why i asked him.Originally Posted by David Weaver
Member
How are we to know, we aren't sitting in his shop watching him work every day? Thus why i asked him.
-Dan
Contributor
Just about anyone who says they aren't screwing something up, on some level, on a daily basis, either isn't paying close enough attention, doesn't actually understand their error, or is simply lying to cover it up. Absolute perfection is impossible because we are all, theoretically at least, human. Making an error once is normal human behavior. It is in making the mistake repeatedly that one begins to learn why the mistake is being made and, with proper reflection sometimes teaching, the person can learn how not to repeat the mistake.
The best artisans in the world are the ones who have made thousands and thousands of mistakes but have learned how not to make them time after time. They progress and they learn to make different and higher-level mistakes, mistakes that they see that guys who are still stuck on the easier mistakes may not see or understand because they aren't there yet.
Being an outstanding craftsman doesn't mean you can teach someone else to be a fine worker. Being a good teacher doesn't necessarily mean you are an outstanding craftsman.
In short, gentlemen, mistakes are the true teachers. The best way to learn is by making them yourself. The next best way is to have an outstanding craftsman share his mistaking making experience. Having a good teacher tell you what they know can be useful, but without the first-hand screwup factor, I'd place it third in the hierarchy of potential for learning.
Last edited by Zach Dillinger; 08-19-2014 at 11:22 AM.
Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.
Member
Dan,my film about making two complicated things: The spinet and the violin,were made completely without re takes unless there was a "hair in the lens". Re takes would have meant I'd have had to make multiples of the same item. Many were quite a lot of work to make in the first place. We had about 3 months to make that very ambitious film. We worked like dogs. When I sawed the ivory,the saw did not waggle up and down,nor jam there,or in any of the other sawing scenes. It went exactly straight back and forth like it should,without succumbing to the circular motions that arms impart with less training. And,ivory is not easy to saw. It's hard as bone. I did not stall a plane out in any of the planing scenes. The dovetails were cut with about 3 quick strokes per cut,exactly on the line. I didn't even use a beveled chisel to chop them out. The dovetails fit quite snug,and had to be pushed together as seen on the film. That,and the videos you can see on the Fine Woodworking site,are the only recorded things I can offer on how to use tools the way they should be used.
If the film is "grainy",it's because it has been copied over and over again. It has been attacked for being "grainy". I don't know how it got on You Tube,or how it was recorded for that use. Besides,I was not the one doing the filming. A professional crew did that.
Sorry,Roy and Chris also know when they are on camera. If they don't want these "amusing" scenes to be out there,let them do better,or stop doing them. You don't see Peter Ross make a false move in his video with Roy. I could point out others who have been on the show,and have done well with their tools. And,those craftsmen have a lot less experience being on camera than Roy or Chris. Especially Roy. Both of them have had a lot more experience on camera than I have had. So,I doubt it's being camera shy that causes the problems. I'd say it is that some people are craftsmen,and some are show men.
I'm not trying to brag here,or be snotty. Nothing I have said is false. Look for yourself.
I know you do not care for me,but let your eyes and reason be the judges,and not some emotional thing.
Certainly everyone makes mistakes. But not on camera and just let it go like that. And certainly not repeated mistakes over and over on camera. Dave,I hope this did not go too far. When I am accused of something,I want to tell the truth about it.
Last edited by george wilson; 08-19-2014 at 1:08 PM.
Contributor
I find these statements slanderous and derogatory.
How dare you insult me by calling me human, Meatbag.
The Barefoot Woodworker.
Fueled by leather, chrome, and thunder.
Member
I have even been told that I should not post anything I made more than 3 years ago. They are no longer relevant.
That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.
And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!
Last edited by george wilson; 08-19-2014 at 1:09 PM.
Member
I have no issue with your skill set, but I do take issue from time to time with how you (and several other members of this forum) occasionally single out someone and then publicly ridicule them or their work. Saying you don't like something specific or you don't care for them in general is one thing, playing pile on is something completely different.
I have noticed you don't seem that way at all when it comes to metalworking. I have yet to see you make a disparaging comment about a specific machinist over at Hobby Machinist!
-Dan
Member
I don't know anyone over at Hobby Machinist who is holding himself forth as a guru. Besides,I'm a moderator there,and most of those guys are beginners. I am there to teach. I was invited there to teach because they need experienced people.
If you are going to be a guru,earn it. Show the proper use of tools when you are making shows about how to use them. Is that asking too much? Isn't that what you should do when making films for all the World to see? It really gets on my nerves when I see new,high quality saws jammed into the floor several times,or nearly kinked sawing 3/4" wood. That is not the way to educate newbies. Nor to entertain (in a positive way) experienced craftsmen.
Last edited by george wilson; 08-19-2014 at 1:23 PM.
Member
Please show me one place where Schwarz or Underhill have called themselves a Guru. What does being a moderator have to do with it?
-Dan
Contributor
I too am dumbfounded. Something made 3, 30 or 300 years ago is relevant. That the craftsman is here to discuss it makes it exponentially more relevant. It doesn't even make sense.
I have even been told that I should not post anything I made more than 3 years ago. They are no longer relevant.
That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.
And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Contributor
You don't want a discussion. You just want to argue. You have an axe to grind and you'll grind it with whatever stone you see.
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Member
I don't need to debate the obvious with you,Dan. Roy's whole life is doing shows,teaching classes,and making book after book. What is he? What is Chris?
Fact is,you do not like me,so leave me alone. I get it.
Guest
PBS had a special about this about a decade ago, where a guy doing a documentary went around the country to people who folks would otherwise deem insignificant (because they were "spent" or past their prime), and he interviewed them - he didn't ask them about stuff, he asked them about them. His point was that society is often quick to try to acquire the things people have made, but eager to disregard the people themselves. Most of the people were confused as to why anyone would want to know anything about them (they were all elderly, intentionally chosen to be), but his point was well taken - we're quick to want to have the things for ourselves, but quick to rationalize why it's OK for us to disregard people or just have no interest in them at all.
That kind of logic completely dumbfounds me.If I made the item,WHY is it no longer relevant? I am 73,and practically "history"myself. I guess I'm no longer relevant.
And who tells me this? A collector. And,I'll bet he collects things that are more than 3 years old!!
50 years from now, george, a few knowledgeable collectors are going to be trying to acquire your things, but they will have made no attempt to get to know you. And that's a shame.
Accessibility to people sometimes convinces us that they are not as good as the unknown or less accessible, though, which is also a shame.
Last edited by David Weaver; 08-19-2014 at 1:47 PM.
Member
I spent a lovely Sunday morning watching all four parts of this series. If anyone else can make the time I'm sure they will find it time well spent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48FezBoPWg
Contributor
One point about Roy's work on TV is that, as far as I can see, the filming of an entire show is done in real-time, no editing, no cutaways, etc. As such, when he makes a mistake - which he does often as we all can see, its because he is rushing to get everything done in the 20 minute time period he has allotted. I think he always acknowledges his mistakes and he never tries to blame it on anything, its just what happens when you hurry. I think those mistakes though, are common mistakes anyone can make and therefore the viewer is able to see mistakes and learn from them just as if the viewer himself made the mistake. I give Roy alll the credit in the world for doing what he does because it is so off the beaten path of typical woodworking shows.
Member
If that's what you think, by all means carry on under those false pretenses.
Since you change your post after I originally responded to it, I'll respond to your update.
This is a good response George, it's succinct and explains exactly what you personally take issue with. Its based purely on your opinions and points of view, and thus as far as Im concerned can't be argued with, because it's not being claimed as a fact.
Professional woodworkers who make money by presenting, teaching and writing! As I said neither one of them have ever claimed to be a guru or master, and I would dare anyone so show a single instance where one of them has claimed they are.
-Dan
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