Living "Off the Grid"

[Mark Bolton]

Im really late to this thread but have been reading it with interest on my phone.

I know it was just conversation but I look at the term off grid differently more similarly to (I think) David's reply. I have an off grid home but to me that means no grid tied power and possibly telco/gas as well and thats about it.

When I think of the individual(s) being spoken about who may practice subsistence living, trying to avoid taxes, bills, overhead, and so on, I think of them in my own term of "under the radar" or "flying below the radar". The term off-grid to me just doesnt cross over but perhaps thats because I live in an off grid home.

All the points have been very interesting and valid. My home is simply a conventional home. No special appliances, no special lighting. Conventional fridge, washer, big screen TV's, on demand water heater (propane), and so on. Of course how conscious and conserving one has to be is dependent on how much you choose to invest in the system but I have had no problems.

That being said, my motivation was a $25K cost from the utility to bring power to the property at which point I would be at the dead end of 8 miles of older line (prior to the 2 miles new) which see's frequent outages, voltage fluctuations, and so on. I simply wasnt interested in that expense and then paying a monthly bill for service.

Something I did find interesting though was how many seemed to have a problem with someone choosing to live a very modest/frugal/humble life in an effort to require very little money to exist. Of course psyche issues aside (hoarding, hermit, reclusive) I just dont see the problem with someone making a conscious decision to live as small a life as possible to perhaps allow them to really do the things they enjoy or are passionate about (windsurfing from a van comes to mind). That taken to a more permanent setup with a house and property but a life lived with a conscious focus on keeping things minimal could allow for a tremendous amount of time and resources for the things that truly make that person happy. I guess I mean it doesnt always equate to some guy muttering around a building with a dirt floor talking to the walls and not bathing.

I think a well planned setup in the right area could allow someone to live a pretty rich life for an amount of money that wouldnt require an IRS filing but I dont have it in me to do it.

With regards to my home much here was spot on, you will never have the power to run major tools without a monumental investment but I have a commercial shop (on the grid which is also very low overhead) and its my work so when I go home I want to be away from all that. I use to always want my home and shop to be together (were for years) but having them separate has been something I really enjoy though I could easily see it from the other side again one day.

We did have an outhouse early on while we were getting setup and I too was one who despised public latrines and porta-john type affairs but to be completely honest I think something is different when its only you. I had no issue with the outhouse whatsoever and actually enjoyed seeing and hearing the wildlife/birds and so on. Agreed winter sucks, and if you were sick it would suck worse (never was thankfully). That said, getting the bathroom in way back then I have said may times I'd sell you the toilet for fifty bucks but you couldnt give me a million dollars for the shower. (well... :-) ) Living without a shower and taking old school bucket baths just plain sucks. I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without.

It of course doesnt pertain to the reclusive/personality issue types but for me its exponentially harder to do as an individual as opposed to two people also. Living a remote/rural life really makes you understand why people had lots of children. Im sure boredom led to frisky behavior, and a lack of contraception, but additionally you are breeding a workforce and a much needed one at that. When I read, watch programs, meet people, who have lived long periods in remote solitary lives Im very humbled. It would be extremely difficult.

[Brian Elfert]

Some friends of mine built a shed at their rural lake home with a shower and a latrine toilet in it to take care of those essentials. They had a water heater to heat the water. They had a well for water and the waste water from the shower was just dumped on the ground. There was a property tax reason not to have a bathroom or running water in the home. They didn't have a septic system anyhow. I believe the home was taxed as a garage since it had no septic, no bathroom, and no running water.

[Jim Matthews]

Some friends of mine built a shed at their rural lake home with a shower and a latrine toilet in it to take care of those essentials.

Do I understand correctly that they don't live in it, year 'round?

"I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without."
Mark Bolton

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

[Larry Edgerton]

Do I understand correctly that they don't live in it, year 'round?

"I would say a shower and washing machine are the two hardest things to live without."
Mark Bolton

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

Inadvertently you have highlighted why one would choose to have the ability to be independent of the grid. I will be hooked to the grid as long as it is there, but also have the capability to run everything in my house that is important without it for a period of time. To you it may seem alarmist, but to me it s a practical matter. Reality is that we will be without power, so I choose to be prepared. A hot shower and a load of laundry are no problem.

[David Weaver]

Larry, as a matter of practice - about 3 or 4 years ago, my parents lost power in the middle of winter because their service line got knocked down by a tree in an ice storm. They were out of power for over a week because they were low priority in an area where there were a lot of outages due to ice damage. It's one thing to be without water and power in the summer, but another entirely to be without it in the winter when you have hot water heat, etc. They had no real choice other than to drain everything and go elsewhere.

They now have the ability to run their well and furnace for a couple of weeks without power. I think they'd find your comments pretty practical.

[Ole Anderson]

I head north in the winter to snowmobile at a friend's A-frame log cabin he bought about 10 years ago. The PO was a survivalist and built it fearing the worst when Y2K rolled around, so it is off the grid. He built his own solar electric system utilizing six 12 volt batteries, five 80 watt solar panels, an inverter and an old generator. Heated with a wood stove. A propane tank allows use of a gas stove and water heater. Full indoor plumbing. The well works without firing up the generator. Off the grid with all of the conveniences.

My home is in a subdivision that has a county maintained well system with a generator. So if I loose power, I can still flush the toilet and take a hot shower. May seem minor, but it is not. But on top of that I have a small generator that I use to backfeed the electrical panel so I have full lighting and electronics. Just no electric oven, big power tools or a/c. Been looking at a NG generator, but can't justify the $5k price tag as we don't have frequent outages, just storm related ones.

[David Weaver]

City water here and fairly frequent power outages in the summer when thunderstorms hit. You are exactly right about being able to flush the toilet, take a shower (and get drinking water, too). We've been without power for a week here once (a reminder that it might be urban and suburbia, but we're in appalachia with a lot of trees and terrain). It was in the summer. It was like being amish (well, maybe not) - when there's no TV and internet, you're just sitting around reading a book or two and then waiting to go to bed once its dark. I definitely got more sleep those days.

For about a week, too, neighbors were outside of their houses talking to each other. That changed fast, though, once the power was back on.

Made me think hard about what the next water heater will be in my house - a WH with no forced fan works power or not, and that week it was a life saver to not have a more efficient design.

[Mark Bolton]

There was a similar situation here when that Derrechio(sp) hit and wiped out the mid-atlantic. There were many here without power for two weeks and many more just as David's folks who were low priority and just needed a limb knocked of a line and a new fuse on the transformer but were dead last on the list. Three weeks with no power put a lot of people at their wits end and even those with generators were spending hundreds of dollars a week in fuel.

Since then the Generac's have been flying in here by the tractor trailer load. Virtually every home we've done has one and 20kw is about the smallest you'll ever see. Many are saying "I want my home to run like its on the grid" so they are installing 30kw and larger. I spoke with one installer who put one in a few miles from here that had a V8 engine. I cant recall the size but it was for a very large home, all electric.

Personally I see the convenience of it being a single unit which comes on automatically but the whole house thing just doesnt make sense to me in that the vast majority of the time the genset is running its powering a trivial load. A few lights, TV, etc. Youve got all that fuel going up in flames for very little use. Many people in fact, especially those on propane, are complaining that the exercise cycles are costing them a bunch all year long. Its kind of funny but I know being without power is a real chore especially homes with a well.

I have a Lincoln Ranger 250 welder here at the shop that serves as my backup power at the off grid home when needed but its of course not automatic.

[Mark Bolton]

These are the key amenities that make urban living so attractive. As I discovered in the 6 and a half days we were without power following Hurricane Irene,
if you want running water, you need to have power to energize the pumps. No power - no water.

I dont think its inherently urban living, I think its just living. Even in the city if the power goes out you may have water and sewer but that will likely be it and that may not even be guaranteed at times.

[Mark Bolton]

I head north in the winter to snowmobile at a friend's A-frame log cabin he bought about 10 years ago. The PO was a survivalist and built it fearing the worst when Y2K rolled around, so it is off the grid. He built his own solar electric system utilizing six 12 volt batteries, five 80 watt solar panels, an inverter and an old generator. Heated with a wood stove. A propane tank allows use of a gas stove and water heater. Full indoor plumbing. The well works without firing up the generator. Off the grid with all of the conveniences.

My home is in a subdivision that has a county maintained well system with a generator. So if I loose power, I can still flush the toilet and take a hot shower. May seem minor, but it is not. But on top of that I have a small generator that I use to backfeed the electrical panel so I have full lighting and electronics. Just no electric oven, big power tools or a/c. Been looking at a NG generator, but can't justify the $5k price tag as we don't have frequent outages, just storm related ones.

Sounds like a fairly typical system Ole, very similar to what I run but perhaps a bit more sophisticated on my end. I have 1400watts of PV, a small wind generator (basically nothing as this area isnt great for wind but it was cheap) and 8 very large 6v industrial batteries (about 150lb each) and of course all the associated inverter, charge controllers, and so on. No well at my place but instead 2400 gallons of in-ground cisterns and rainwater catchment. The property is on a 1500' ridge and iron/sulfer/cal-mag is very common in wells around here. I dont know a single person who has great well water. Like the power, I was unwilling to take a crap shoot on a 300' well just to have iron water. No regrets. A bit more work, but good water and a 120v deep well pump in the cistern makes it like being in town.

Its by no means a substitute for the grid. Its the most expensive power you'll ever have. But for the situation, it seemed the best solution.

[Dave Anderson NH]

We have had a power outage of 2 days or more at least once each year since 2008. We are also at the end of the service line for our power cooperative so we get reconnected last. The worst for us was the December ice storm of 2009 when we were without power in sub freezing temps for 6 days. Being without heat wasn't bad since I have a wood stove and even the second floor never got below 46F. It was the loss of all the fridge and freezer food, no running water (we're on a 380 ft well), and having to cook on the top of the wood stove which is not an old fashioned kitchen stove. Going down to the creek and filling up 5 gallon cans with water to flush toilets gets old real quickly as does having to go to relatives 20 miles away to shower so you can go to work.

Finally last year we bit the bullet and had a 14kw Generac installed along with 2 120 gallon propane tanks and all the appropriate auto transfer switching and auto start electrics. Since then during the 2 8-12 hour outages we've had, we were without power for a total of 15 seconds each time. I can live with having to go around and resetting the time on all of the digital stuff in the house.

[Larry Edgerton]

There was a similar situation here when that Derrechio(sp) hit and wiped out the mid-atlantic. There were many here without power for two weeks and many more just as David's folks who were low priority and just needed a limb knocked of a line and a new fuse on the transformer but were dead last on the list. Three weeks with no power put a lot of people at their wits end and even those with generators were spending hundreds of dollars a week in fuel.

Since then the Generac's have been flying in here by the tractor trailer load. Virtually every home we've done has one and 20kw is about the smallest you'll ever see. Many are saying "I want my home to run like its on the grid" so they are installing 30kw and larger. I spoke with one installer who put one in a few miles from here that had a V8 engine. I cant recall the size but it was for a very large home, all electric.

Personally I see the convenience of it being a single unit which comes on automatically but the whole house thing just doesnt make sense to me in that the vast majority of the time the genset is running its powering a trivial load. A few lights, TV, etc. Youve got all that fuel going up in flames for very little use. Many people in fact, especially those on propane, are complaining that the exercise cycles are costing them a bunch all year long. Its kind of funny but I know being without power is a real chore especially homes with a well.

I have a Lincoln Ranger 250 welder here at the shop that serves as my backup power at the off grid home when needed but its of course not automatic.

This is why I have a welder generator and a small 1000 watt generator that can handle the furnace/wood furnace/fridge. I only use the big one for the well/WH.

[Mark Bolton]

This is why I have a welder generator and a small 1000 watt generator that can handle the furnace/wood furnace/fridge. I only use the big one for the well/WH.

Thats smart Larry. I always thought thats what i'd do if I ever had to. One of those little honda inverter generators, even though pricey, are so quiet and perfect size for the little stuff that runs 90% of the time. Save the gallon an hour super sucker for when you need it.

In that big outage I was hauling my welding machine from house to house charging up the fridge/freezer, letting them run some water, and so on but man, it'd hurt to hear that gallon an hour going out the window so you can watch TV.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Living "off the grid" is subjective.

Which grid? I have 2 city water systems, domestic for household use and irrigation (untreated) for use outdoors.

I use natural gas for HVAC and heating water.

My house and shop have their own electrical services.

While the corporation provided me with a cell phone for years, I didn't have a personal cell phone until my sudden deafness forced me to retire. My wife travels much more than I and being deaf, having the texting ability comes in very handy when she is out of town. Depending on the equipment at both ends of a telephone conversation, I can struggle a bit even with my cochlear implant. Thus texting is important. I never hand that number out, however. The only time I turn on that cellphone is when she is out of town. The rest of the time it stays in a drawer unless I remember to pull it out and charge it.

For over 2 decades I elk hunted in a serious way with 5 other guys. We camped at an elevation of 7,000 feet in wall tents with wood stoves and 3" foam pads on army cots. We hunted on foot and used mules to pack out the elk. We got water from the nearby spring, and boiled it. We often dug a pit for a latrine. Hunting in the extremely steep mountains causes one to sweat a lot. One of the guys rigged a old large institution soup pot with a spigot and a 12 volt RV water pump. He wrapped several feet of copper line around one of the wood stoves. We would park one of the pickups near the tent and clip leads from the RV pump to the truck battery. We would heat water by pumping from the pot, through the tubing into a collapsible container with a valve at the bottom. With a tarp around three trees, we'd hang the container of hot water in the tree and shower to reduce chaffing caused by the salts from sweating during hunting.

I miss those days!

At times after spending 10 days in more than 20" of snow, we appreciated the modern conveniences when we returned to town.

[Mark Bolton]

Living "off the grid" is subjective.

For me it has simply always means, or at least starts with, no electric, i.e. the electric "grid". This then carries the implication that if there are no electric lines running to your property, there are also no phone lines (shared pole), and no gas line (why run gas when there arent the others), same for city water, and sewer, and so on.

In our society electricity is start for everything, it all starts there, without it, none of the subsequent utilities would ever be there.

Of course there are variables in the mix like my property for instance which is remote yet has a natural gas well on it which I could tie into if I pushed the issue but have no desire.

I like your hunting story, and while my place is not "roughing it" by any means, especially nowadays with wireless hotspots and so on, I often enjoy the contrast of the two and think it would be good for more people to experience that "roughing it" if only for the appreciation factor.

I for instance grew up in a normal suburban life, I dont think I ever even camped much until I was grown. I moved to this property and took my time getting setup and things built (a bit too much time lets say). It was like a break from reality, a bit of a long vacation/sabbatical. In that time we roughed it a lot and for longer than we planned because we were too busy goofing off in the woods, four wheeler riding, exploring, and just enjoying ourselves. So the day the bath/shower/laundry came on line it was like the second coming. A hot shower, and a looooong one at that. And this is no lie, to this day (which is years and years later) I dont care when or where, when I step into a hot shower an overwhelming feeling of appreciation comes over me. It happens every single time.

For me, it really speaks to the small things in life.