DC system + Shop Vac for dust control?

[Roger Crawford]

New member. Joined because I have a great garage based workspace and do a lot of various work and was trying to do something with dust.

Unlike others here I don't have a lot of fixed equipment, but do have a great workspace that I share with other functions so trying to keep dust livable is key. The Spouse/CFO is not a happy camper walking to the freezer and getting splinters as an example. I have a lot of nice tools. primarily all Bosch, with a lot of the chip/dust generation limited to planer, biscuit joiner, sanders, routers, cut off saws etc. Essentially mostly all hand held tools barring the one table saw and sliding miter saw and Drill press. My crafts tend toward the furniture side and I for the most part don't need that 42 horsepower table saw. I do need to keep the dust down - especially the fines.

Thing is most all of my tools are 2 1/4 hose sizing or in the case of much of the Bosch 35mm which is more easy to fit to a good shop vac than a larger DC system In fact I've found links that say unless you're doing things like free standing planers/jointers a shop vac is more than enough? Yes, I understand the whole air flow/air speed/resistance things and what I don't I'll get my PhD in training aerospace engineer daughter to explain . What I really want to know is whether you find that proper dust collection requires both a DC system and a Shop level vacuum, or if one or the other will substitute. Thoughts appreciated.

[Mike Ontko]

Roger,

I think you hit on the key to your question of whether a large scale DC system would be required in your case--if you don't have any large equipment (tablesaw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, surface sander), then there really doesn't seem to be a need for going after those types of solutions. Your focus then would be on finding solutions for each of the following areas:

1) finding ways to catch the majority of the dust coming off of the hand tools you're using

ex: a catch hood for your miter saw, adapters for attaching a vacuum hose to your ROS or router

2) filtering the air for any of the finer particles that don't get sucked up into your shop vac system

ex: buy a ceiling mounted filtration system, or just use a box fan and furnace filter

3) finding ways to isolate the space you do your work in, so that the dust doesn't get introduced to the non-working space that you're sharing

ex: build a temporary wall system using plastic sheeting or rigid foam, or build a downdraft table that you can connect your shop vac to

[Peter Aeschliman]

What I really want to know is whether you find that proper dust collection requires both a DC system and a Shop level vacuum

My short answer is "yes."

A shop vac with a HEPA filter and a separator (Thein baffle or small cyclone) will work great for electric hand tools (sanders, routers, the small port on your miter saw, etc) and clean up (vacuuming the floor).

But bigger dust producers such as the planer, table saw, jointer, drum sanders, oscillating spindle sanders, etc etc will require lots of volume in order to capture the fines.

So, my answer is, both. And as a third-order priority, you'll probably also want an air scrubber to pull fines out of the air that escape the shop vac and the DC. Although some will take the idealistic line that an air scrubber isn't necessary if you have good primary dust collection, my real-world observation is that it's often impractical to get 100% collection at the source and that air scrubbers help.

Sorry, I know you probably want somebody to tell you that you can just get by with a shop vac, but as soon as you mentioned the desire to capture fine dust, that option went out the window. It may come down to a discussion between you and your CFO, where she has to wrestle with the cost of the dust collection equipment vs the desire to mitigate dust.

[ian maybury]

Think judging by your mention of having a table saw and a sliding chop saw you may not have eascaped the need to cover both bases.

The obvious requirement is chip and visible dust collection (splinters as you say), but the real health issue arises from breathing fine sub micron invisible dust produced by power tools and machines like you router and saws. The workshop and the house get filled with it, and every time you move (even if you don't use machines) you fill the air with it and do damage to your lungs. The risks are not trivial. This is probably the best primer on the health issue/risks, and what it takes to get control of it about: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/dc_basics.cfm

Machines like routers with very small bore ports are designed to use the likes of a shop vac that does a lot of pressure but minimal volume (CFM) - to save space (small hoses) and make them easy to handle. Stuff like table and chop saws really require very high CFM systems - to not just pick up the chips, but also to create a fume hood/air cleaning effect by pulling in the air from a sizeable volume surrounding the point of work for filtering as described on the link above. The real world requirement tends to be determined by to some combination of the machine, type of hooding, the operation and the capability of the dust system - it can be highly variable. Stuff like belt sanders also needs very high volumes and the ability to handle a high proportion of fine dust.

The problem ultimately tends to be that most of us end up in this boat, and while there are commonly used approaches there's no one size fits all hits all the bases solution.

The one thng that's clear is that your typical smaller fan based dust collector won't even get close to generating enough suction to move enough air if hooked up to a router or the like. Your vacuum likely will, but it won't shift remotely enough CFM to be useful on e.g. floor machines needing high CFM like saws. There are 5 HP large e.g. 16in diameter fan equipped systems (often with a VFD) that by virtue of combining high pressure and voume capability (at a price) come close to covering both bases, but they are expensive and they still don't get all the way there.

Filtration is the other issue unless all is being exhausted outside. Cheap coarse weave bag filters really don't stop the dangerous fine particles (they blind up very quickly if specified fine enough to do do, or need to be very large), while HEPA or HEPA like fine cartridge filters made to an appropriate industry standard pack lots of high quality media area into a small space and are very effective - but need a cyclone or separator before to prevent premature blocking. Even vacuums have problems in this regard - stock vacuum filter cartridges tend to be coarse and to pump a fair amount of fine dust back into the shop, while fine HEPA like ones are expensive and block easily. Which gave rise to the mini cyclone business.

The situation isn't very satisfactory. There's any number of cheap low HP fan bag filter equipped small mobile dust collectors on the market, but they typically don't do a good job as above unless hooding and operations are very carefully optimised to suit. Stock vacuums likewise have their limitations.

It's in the end a pays your money takes your pick sort of deal - with the starting point probably being to read the material at the link above. Lots get by on lower cost stock solutions, while others go for broke and install much higher spec and presumably much safer systems….

[Jim Dwight]

I have a small DC (1hp Delta) that I used in my last shop. It sits uninstalled in my current shop while I try out my shop vacuum dust deputy combination. I really like it so far. My table saw is a Ryobi BT3100 which has a 2 1/4 port which the shop vacuum hooks to well. I loose stuff on top but the shop vacuum gets most of the debris. Using the smaller 35mm hose (Bosch 5 meter which hooks to the dust deputy directly) to clean up the top occasionally and the floor occasionally gets what is missed. I move my lunchbox planner outside when using it and sweep up after using it. I may make a modified outfeed baffle so I can see how much the shop vacuum can get. The shop vacuum gets a good bit of the dust the RAS and CMS put out but not nearly all of it. I have to clean up sometimes. It works really well with my tracksaw and hand sanders. The shop vacuum has a HEPA filter so it isn't just throwing the fine stuff out the back - like the Delta DC did before I put a cartridge filter on it.

My advice is to get a dust deputy, build a little cart for it and the shop vacuum, and see how it works for you. You need it anyway for the smaller tools and it may do a good enough job for the bigger tools. If not, then you can also add a DC. To have a chance at all the RAS and CMS put out, I need a large hood with a large volume of air. I don't think my 1hp will do it. To get all the table saw dust, I need collection from above. The problem with all this is cost. Cheapest way to go is probably the HF 2hp DC with a Super Dust Deputy cyclone discharging outside (I don't heat or cool the shop). Even then, with hoses and stuff, you will have $500 plus in it. And it isn't hard to spend a lot more. My debate is whether I really need the benefit of all that versus just using the shop vacuum to clean up what gets missed. A great thing about the DD is it dumps into an easily dumped 4.5 gallon drywall bucket. No bags, no breathing all that dust stirred up changing a bag.

With respect to the health aspect I won't deny I've been in enough dust to be uncomfortable but not while using my current shop vac based setup. There are authoritative papers where the dust in other situations is compared to wood shops. The conclusion is that the wood shop is not particularly dusty. Our bodies are designed to deal with a fair bit of dust. Mr. Pentz has some good stuff on his website but you also need to know he is reportedly allergic to wood dust. He appears to believe that happened from over exposure. Might be true but that isn't the only way to get an allergy. For those of us who are not allergic, we may not have to get the dust down as much as Bill recommends. But it certainly wouldn't hurt anything if you have the budget and space. The main thing I strongly encourage you to do is not to run a DC with the stock 20 micron bags. That will get the big stuff but throw up all the little stuff to make a mess and for you and others to breath. Don't do that. Put good filters on it or discharge it outside.

[Scott DelPorte]

I would give it a go with a good shop vac and see how that works for you and the CFO. If later you get stationary tools with bigger dust ports and decide to get a DC system, you will still want a shop vac anyway, so its not a wasted purchase.

[William C Rogers]

If I was going the shop vac way, I would get the HEPA filter and good bag for it. I definitely get the dust deputy like Jim said above. I have one dedicated to a shop vac system for my hand tools. I am amazed how well the system works. I haven't had the need to change the bag going on almost a year now and still very little in it. For all my bigger tools I have a DC system as those tools take a lot more volume to keep up with the chips.

[glenn bradley]

I agree with Peter's short answer of "yes". You requirement will vary but, I have a 1HP bagger (equipped with an after market top bag from American Fabric Filters) that is exclusive to the jointer. A cyclone for the other large tools. A shop vac with a dust deputy for router, ROS, jig saw, etc. as well as general shop clean up. Another shop vac for the DP, scrollsaw and smaller bandsaw.

My cut off saw was banished years ago. The footprint required to value offered combined with the challenging dust collection was his undoing. I make all these cuts other ways but, I don't do a lot of trim work or crown molding. If I had a requirement for long stock compound angle cutting, my priorities would be different ;-)

IMHO a DC does not substitute for a shop vac. These are two different tools despite the fact that both suck stuff up. I wouldn't want to tow a 5th wheel with a mini-pickup and I wouldn't want to use a full sized truck as a commuter vehicle. Similar machines but, different tasks.

[Roger Crawford]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I hadn't committed to it either way, and recently purchased the HF DC system simply because.. well because tools . So I can go either direction or both, although my Rigiid vacuum has seen a bit much use so it's on the short list for replacement. Grr with all these proprietary hose connections on new vacuums though.

I've used the shop-vac method for years now and it was the "there must be something better" aspect of it that prompted the HF purchase. But now that I'm trying to design it (don't want external venting unless I can get return air that isn't cold in the winter, etc) I'm not seeing that the HF, or even a "name brand" DC system is maybe the best idea for me either. Don't get me wrong, I have it, I'll use it and there are things like a downdraft table where I can see that it has value. But as a built in vacuum system best for my needs I'm still on the fence. Then there's that current design issue where even if it would vacuum do I really want to suck up that 1/2" nut off the floor and how far can the impeller fling it? which adds to the need for cyclone or separator which of course is only more $ right? Ha!

Thanks everyone for the input. Not looking for validation for a purchase, just trying to find what the best plan of attack here so everyone's input is appreciated even if it differs from the next guys. It's about what's worked for you at the end of the day that I'm interested in.

And Glenn, from the dust standpoint I wish I could banish my miter saw! It's probably the messiest of the tools I have.

[Daniel Greening]

On my list of things to buy is an Oneida Dust Cobra. Like you almost all of my tools are of the portable variety. While I do have a custom Dust Deputy/Rigid vac cart, I feel like its kind of underpowered in terms of CFM, especially when hooked to the Bosch 4100 which has a y-connection to supply suck to the main dust port and the Shark Guard blade guard.

[Peter Aeschliman]

And Glenn, from the dust standpoint I wish I could banish my miter saw! It's probably the messiest of the tools I have.

Yeah, that's a very common experience.

I have two dust collectors hooked up to mine- my 3HP cyclone plumbed with 6" duct branched to 3 4" ports in a "back stop" behind the saw (to collect the cloud of fine dust from behind the saw), and my old 1hp single stage collector to grab the heavy chips that fall down with gravity through a funnel behind and below the saw. It works pretty well but it was a lot of trial and error... and it's definitely not an elegant solution.

I hate it enough that I'm considering getting rid of the miter saw station altogether. I'll keep the saw, but just put it on a shelf and only pull it out for tasks that my sliding table attachment can't do. The only time I really need the miter saw is when I'm roughly breaking down long workpieces or doing trim for my house.

Something to consider, although I haven't committed yet because it is pretty convenient to just jump on the miter saw for a quick cut.