What's wrong with Woodriver?!

[lowell holmes]

I would...as I stated in my earlier post my problem was that an American company's signature line of products is largely made in China, Solely to save money/increase Corporates bottom line. If I had a chance to try and use a Chinese company's chinese tool and found it satisfactory, I would gladly purcahse it. (mujinfang comes to mind, some of their planes look interesting).

I have one of their plow planes. It does what it's supposed to do.

[Patrick Chase]

I would...as I stated in my earlier post my problem was that an American company's signature line of products is largely made in China, Solely to save money/increase Corporates bottom line. If I had a chance to try and use a Chinese company's chinese tool and found it satisfactory, I would gladly purcahse it. (mujinfang comes to mind, some of their planes look interesting).

The WR planes are made by Quangsheng. You can find their "own brand" planes in various places like Workshop Heaven, though it won't save you any money relative to buying from WR.

In my experience the trope about America companies moving manufacturing overseas to pocket the profit is neither accurate nor useful in understanding what's really happening. More often it's a race to the bottom wherein everybody either switches or perishes. If WR had "stood on principle" as some seem to advocate and hadn't partnered with QS, then somebody else would have done so in their place and drastically undercut them.

[Derek Cohen]

Statements like ...

"WR planes are cheaper ... I cannot afford LN, LV, or Clifton ..."

"It's the way business is run today .."

"If Wood Craft had not, someone else would have done it ..."

..... all these statements (and there are many others) are just rationalisations. Any one can find a way to justify a decision.

I am not going to preach to you what is right or wrong. It is up to you to make what you truly believe to be an appropriate decision. Some find this hard. Others find this easier. Just do not seek to convince me (to convince yourself) that you are right by using one of these rationalisations.

Regards from Perth

[Kees Heiden]

It's just like politics these days, emotions are important, ratio not so much anymore.

The fact that LN isn't harmed at all by the woodriver planes, doesn't seem to play a role in the discussion.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm not going to close this thread because folks have remained polite and respectful which I truly appreciate.

On the other hand don't you think we've beaten this one to death?

[Daniel Rode]

beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

I agree completely

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, I suppose so.

[Pat Barry]

I thought they killed a printer???

[Patrick Chase]

Statements like ...

"WR planes are cheaper ... I cannot afford LN, LV, or Clifton ..."

"It's the way business is run today .."

"If Wood Craft had not, someone else would have done it ..."

..... all these statements (and there are many others) are just rationalisations. Any one can find a way to justify a decision.

I am not going to preach to you what is right or wrong.

It is up to you to make what you truly believe to be an appropriate decision. Some find this hard. Others find this easier. Just do not seek to convince me (to convince yourself) that you are right by using one of these rationalisations.

Regards from Perth

Have you ever been involved in a supply-chain decision like this, where you had to decide whether to sacrifice some employees (by outsourcing) or all (by not)? I have, though I've since moved out of that line of work. If you haven't then please just stop, because you're holding forth with no concept of who or what you're impugning or how much they likely agonized over their actions.

The companies (and by extension their employees) that make these decisions are by and large just doing what they have to to survive. If you want to fix this then you need to focus on the higher-level economic policies that are creating the conditions under which such decisions are necessary. Banging on the likes of WC accomplishes nothing but to reveal the speaker's own ignorance.

Derek, you have the luxury of working in a profession that's somewhat protected from competition (Oz has board-certification for psychologists if I'm not mistaken) so you are in a uniquely privileged situation. Please think before you talk down to those of us who live in the real world.

[Mike Henderson]

Statements like ...

"WR planes are cheaper ... I cannot afford LN, LV, or Clifton ..."

"It's the way business is run today .."

"If Wood Craft had not, someone else would have done it ..."

..... all these statements (and there are many others) are just rationalisations. Any one can find a way to justify a decision.

I am not going to preach to you what is right or wrong. It is up to you to make what you truly believe to be an appropriate decision. Some find this hard. Others find this easier. Just do not seek to convince me (to convince yourself) that you are right by using one of these rationalisations.

Regards from Perth

It's not a rationalization, Derek. It's the way the world works. It's the difference between idealism and pragmatism.

Mike

[And if you want to rationalize your position on moral grounds, you really need to offer some evidence (or even a reasonable argument) that WC did something wrong. We've already shown that copying non-protected material is not wrong; that it's encouraged by our legal and economic system. And I think we put to bed the urban legend that WC used an LN plane to make the molds for the WR planes. Finally, WC had no long term commitment to LN and could legally and morally terminate the relationship at any time. Where are your moral grounds?]

[Derek Cohen]

Have you ever been involved in a supply-chain decision like this, where you had to decide whether to sacrifice some employees (by outsourcing) or all (by not)? I have, though I've since moved out of that line of work. If you haven't then please just stop, because you're holding forth with no concept of who or what you're impugning or how much they likely agonized over their actions.

The companies (and by extension their employees) that make these decisions are by and large just doing what they have to to survive. If you want to fix this then you need to focus on the higher-level economic policies that are creating the conditions under which such decisions are necessary. Banging on the likes of WC accomplishes nothing but to reveal the speaker's own ignorance.

Derek, you have the luxury of working in a profession that's somewhat protected from competition (Oz has board-certification for psychologists if I'm not mistaken) so you are in a uniquely privileged situation. Please think before you talk down to those of us who live in the real world.

Oh please, Patrick, that is stretching it all a bit far. What on Earth has the decision made by Wood Craft to employ a factory in China to build cheap versions of a LN-lookalike as well as copies of Veritas tools (yes, they did those too) got to do with a company looking to save bucks to retain the position of their employees in the USA?!

In my world - hopefully real - one does not knife a partner in the back .... not unless you are one of my patients, of course

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

From your persistant defense of the matter, one gets the impression that YOU are the one that thinks they have been "stabbed in the back"

L-N threatened by all of this? Hardy. A spokesperson for them, maybe? Seems that one doest protest a wee bit too much. Cash Cow in trouble there, me boy-oh?

For the record, I have never been into a Woodcraft store, and have never bought a Wood River tool. The one I tried out was a gift, due to my winning a monthly prize.

Maybe time to send this Le Grande Crusade to bed, and just stagger back out to the wood shop? Maybe L-N could pull what Stanley used to do? They would buy out a competitor/rival, use up all the remaining inventory( without making a new) and then just close the doors on the factory. Say, like they did to both Ohio Tool Co. and Union Plane Co.? Problem solved, right. Cash Cow has been saved!!

[Patrick Chase]

From your persistant defense of the matter, one gets the impression that YOU are the one that thinks they have been "stabbed in the back"

L-N threatened by all of this? Hardy. A spokesperson for them, maybe? Seems that one doest protest a wee bit too much. Cash Cow in trouble there, me boy-oh?

For the record, I have never been into a Woodcraft store, and have never bought a Wood River tool. The one I tried out was a gift, due to my winning a monthly prize.

Maybe time to send this Le Grande Crusade to bed, and just stagger back out to the wood shop? Maybe L-N could pull what Stanley used to do? They would buy out a competitor/rival, use up all the remaining inventory( without making a new) and then just close the doors on the factory. Say, like they did to both Ohio Tool Co. and Union Plane Co.? Problem solved, right. Cash Cow has been saved!!

Bed time indeed. Thanks!

[Robert Engel]

I find it remarkable that sharpening a bevel-down plane as pictured in your previous post would cause clogging. Can you please explain the mechanics by which that happened? Did you ruler-trick the blade back or do anything else that might impact the cap iron to blade interface?

Also the out-of-box tune on those planes isn't very good, so making one worse after sharpening is also quite remarkable.

Seriously, while I'm not much of a WR fan (I find their planes both overweight and overpriced for the quality) it sounds to me as though there are some additional variables here that you are not disclosing. It is simply not credible that a well-executed sharpening would cause what you describe. The blades in those planes are decent (not great) HCS and take a reasonable (not great) edge.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, do you have any other planes with "machined" cap irons (you know, the sort that Warren hates)? If I had to guess I'd venture that you're doing something with the blade back or cap iron that works with the more compliant stamped/bent style cap irons but not with the less compliant (lower preload, higher spring constant) machined ones.

I don't think he's going to have an answer for us. I've never had anything remotely like the issues he is describing.

I've observed many will discredit the tool for one of two reasons, either "Stanley Or Nothing" or "I hate WR planes because they are made in China". I have 3 WR planes and and they all function beautifully for me, in fact with fresh blades they are almost equal to my LN.

I don't care who they copied. Didn't LN copy the Bedrock?

[Frederick Skelly]

Statements like ...

"WR planes are cheaper ... I cannot afford LN, LV, or Clifton ..."

"It's the way business is run today .."

"If Wood Craft had not, someone else would have done it ..."

..... all these statements (and there are many others) are just rationalisations. Any one can find a way to justify a decision.

I am not going to preach to you what is right or wrong. It is up to you to make what you truly believe to be an appropriate decision. Some find this hard. Others find this easier. Just do not seek to convince me (to convince yourself) that you are right by using one of these rationalisations.

Regards from Perth

Please allow me to make one counterpoint, if you don't mind Derek? That is: I choose not to buy LN for the same reason I don't buy a BMW - I don't need/desire/require that level of car (or tool) for the things that I do. Is that BMW a fine, fine machine? Sure it is. I dont know anyone who has one that isnt thrilled with theirs (BMW or LN). Doesn't mean I need/want one, friend - and the choice has nothing to do with cost. I just don't need it. Much like I dont need/want/require a $10,000 european table saw, etc. It's just not something I want.

Respectfully,
Fred

Edit: My mix of Stanleys, LV and WR seems sufficient for the planing I do. If something changes, so might my tool choices.