Dust Collector - Wifey says, "Just get it." (Questions)

[Jim Becker]

So... what's so bad about mdf dust?

It's very fine and contains a LOT of non-wood material...the resins that are used to bind the fine particles together when them make the stuff under intense pressure. Some of it containes formaldehyde, but that is brand specific. Nasty stuff that you do NOT want in your lungs. And...it's a pain in the tukus to clearn up when and if it finally settles out of the air in your shop and/or home. Dust collection at the source is really important with this stuff.

[Bob Dodge]

All,

So, let's say I started doing any and all MDF work outside.

Can you see any better option (aside from a cyclone) over the HF 2hp DC with a wynn canister conversion? (For around $200)

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Hi TJ,

Lemme see, on one hand, you have the H.F. and a Wynn cartridge. Total cost is probably around $250 after the conversion. Your impeller is 10 1/2", with a 5" blower outlet.

Since this is by far the cheapest dc around, I suppose it would be logical to surmize that it also has the cheapest motor around. Sound fair?

Plus you have to invest some time in modifying the dc's bag-tree to add a neutral vane. hmmm.

Summary, you buy the dc, then change it, then scrap the filters, and buy new ones. How much is this completed "bargain" dc again?

You can buy a complete Delta 50-760 with one of the best filters I've seen on a consumer level dc, for as low as $239. The oversized(20.5 sq.ft.) 1 micron needle-felt filter, is rated to 1 micron. The impeller is 11 1/2". I'd imagine like most Delta dc's, that the motor has manual thermal overload protection as well. Nothing to "up-grade or modify". Plug n' Play. Despite the fact that it's a 1 1/2 hp dc, it will easily outperform even the modified HF.

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5815

here's a review;

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/d50-760rvu.html

Good luck, Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Bob,

Thanks so much for your reply.
You make a very compelling argument. As a result, I'm going to see who has the best deal on the Delta unit.

All,

I've been researching the whole DC issue over the past couple of days.
At this point, here's what I'm thinking about doing.

1. I'll buy the Delta 50-760. This will stretch the budget a bit, but I'm a logical guy and I don't like to waste money. Bob makes a logical argument.

2. I'll do all MDF work outside, with my respirator.

3. I'll also evaluate where the DC will go. Originally, I wanted to put it in the other basement and pipe into my shop through a window-like opening. However, I'm concerned that the pipe turns necessary to make this happen would kill its ability to operate effectively. After going over my shop layout again, I think I've found a place I can put it without sacrificing much.

4. Although I realize that a cyclone is the ideal scenario, I can't really afford one and don't have the space to accommodate one. With the above changes in my workflow, I think its certainly better to go this route than not having dust collection of any kind. Wouldn't you agree?

Thank you so much to everyone for your helpful responses and feedback. Your help has really gone far toward solving this problem for me.

[Jim Becker]

TJ, you may be better served by keeping the Delta unit mobile and just moving it from machine to machine. These smaller systems aren't the best with duct work, especially with bunches of twists and turns and you'll get the best performance with just a short hose to the tools. And some simple hearing protection is less costly than the duct work, too...something that sounds like it's important to you right now.

[Marcus Ward]

I would read this website before you go buying ANYTHING. I spent a couple of hours last night reading most of it and it changes your purchase decisions.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...Conversion.cfm

He talks about how hobbyist DC's are almost worthless at getting the fine dust, talks about a filter conversion from wynn filter for the HF dc and how it's far more effective than a stock out of the box dc from almost anyone. I am going to buy the 35a cartridge filter from Wynn for my HF DC and modify the inlet a little so that it seperates chips more effectively. Thing is, if you buy the Delta DC you're still going to get the small particles that are the ones that cause problems, and you'd STILL have to buy the conversion filter from Wynn to get effective FINE DUST collection because the 20.5 sq ft of filter area provided by the nice bags is not enough to allow enough air to move through the system to pick up the really fine dust. You're still going to end up retrofitting it to get the fine stuff, and you'll be out even more money. I'd buy the HF and retrofit it with the Wynn cartridge and be in total only a bit more than the Delta DC instead of buying the delta, finding it insufficient, and modding it later. Either way, good luck. That website opened my eyes (and helped explain why my entire shop is coated in dust... and why I cough and hack in the mornings.)

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Ok, I've been thinking about a more 'long term' plan.
What do you folks think?

1. I'll go with a standard DC in the $250 - $300 range. Either the Delta 50-570 or the HF 2hp. Probably the Delta.

2. I'll start using that, using a 20-ft or so run and move it between machines. For the next 6 months or a year.

3. I have an HVAC blower already set aside to build an ambient air filter for the shop ceiling.

4. I'll build a DC closet, of sorts, just outside my shop's exterior door. And this is where the DC will live. I can run power through the exterior wall and feed my DC run into the shop. This would isolate the DC from the shop, helping prevent the fine dust expulsion issues raised by some.

5. When we're on better financial footing (my wife starts her job as a fulltime firefighter in March), I'll rework the "closet" and buy a cyclone!
At that point, I can resell my Delta DC and probably get about half my money back out of it.

What do you folks think about this plan?

[john mclane]

Bob
You have mnetioned this particular DC before do youhave any knowledge about the cartridge model Model 50-850A. I have a height problem (ceiling 6'7") that I need to consider and most of the cyclones and many of the 2 bag systems are too tall.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi T.J.

Don't worry about MDF with that Delta, you'll see none of it back in your shop air. The filter on this dc is really quite good. All of the new Delta line-up, use exactly the same cloth for all their filters. These are the nicest filters I've yet seen on a consumer model dc. The fine particle filtration will be there.

Now, you'll also have to keep that filter clean if your milling a lot of MDF, but for the most part, if you simply give the filter a good shake when you start-up your dc, you'll be fine, This holds true for any bag-type filter, and is certainly much easier and quicker than blowing-out a cannister filter with a compressor and blow-gun.

While many will tell you that a cartridge is capable of finer filtration than a bag-filter, it is simply not the case. I have yet to see a single cartridge filter with an air-permebility rating of better than 20 cfm/sq.ft. A high-quality needle-felt filter, will routinely flow better than 50-60 cfm/ sq.ft., and filter to 1 micron and better. In my own shop, I use a small industrial dc from Pyradia/Belfab. The 1/8" thick needle-felt filters are superb. While I have an ambient air-cleaner, I have never once used it since buying my dc. My shop's air-quality is pristine. I have never once removed my top-filter for cleaning, and I've had that dc for almost 4 years now. Just a quick shake, and I'm good to go.

I recently conducted an airflow test on my dc. I used a short 7.5ft long 6" pipe, and found that my amp-draw with the "dirty" filters was 10.7 amps. With the top filter completely removed and zero back-pressure, the difference was only 0.4 amps. My dc has 32 sq.ft. of surface area. The filters are rated to 1/2 micron.

This doesn't mean that you'll have no maintenance. A small dc like the Delta 50-760 means you'll have to be diligent in keeping that filter fairly clean. With the much larger 2hp 50-761, you'd have twice the filter-surface area, and twice the waste capacity, but it's also twice the price. What you won't get, is twice the suction. Again, just give that filter a good shake on start-up, and I think you'll be very satisfied with this dc. Of course, fine dust will tend to require more frequent cleaning than coarse/dry shavings will. In fact, you could probably even overflow the bottom waste-bag to the point where your top filter is almost full of planer shavings, yet notice very little drop-off in suction.

As to ducting, try to place that dc as close as possible to your largest air-requirement machine. You should easily be capable of pulling close to 800 cfm at your table-saw, if you keep that pipe run short and efficient. It's even possible to use some 6" pipe with that dc, despite the fact that it has a 5" inlet. By placing the dc close to your saw, you can run a 6" pipe to the saw at floor level, then split that 6" pipe with a 6x6x6 wye. The 6" branch that goes to the saw should be further split to 6x4x4, or 6x4x3. Run a 4" to the base, and use the other branch for an overarm blade-cover. Now, back at that original 6x6x6 split, just continue your duct-run from that point. A 5" pipe from there, will easily handle your planer and jointer. With your three "majors" taken care of, you can run smaller 4" smooth-walled pipe to your router-table, etc.

It's too bad that some of these single-stage dc's get such a bad rap. In many cases it's deserved, but I'd have to say that in many more cases, it's just poorly designed ducting on the part of the owner, and "over-rated" filter efficiency. Properly ducted, and used within it's limitations, a dc like this Delta should do a very good job indeed, and in that price range, nothing else can compare.

Regarding the price you've mentioned ($289.), I thought that the suggested retail price was $279. Just recently, Delta offered a $30. rebate/discount. I've seen some guys get that dc for as little as $239.

If you need some help with ducting, just get back to me and I'll be glad to help out.

All the best, Bob

[T.J. Mahaffey]

Hi T.J.
Regarding the price you've mentioned ($289.), I thought that the suggested retail price was $279. Just recently, Delta offered a $30. rebate/discount. I've seen some guys get that dc for as little as $239.

If you need some help with ducting, just get back to me and I'll be glad to help out.

All the best, Bob

Bob, I can't thank you enough for your input.
I'd say its settled at this point. I'm going to pull the trigger on the Delta you've recommended.

Normally, I wouldn't go into this with the *possibility* that I might buy a cyclone later. BUT, I think your recommendation is my best option at this point. And it makes me feel more confident to get the 1 micron bags right out of the box and have a good Delta warranty to boot. Likely saving me future hassles following up on potential HF returns, if I had gone with the HF.

No doubt some have had good success with HF, but I think this is a good plan for me.

Bob, I will definitely need help with ducting. I know ZEE-RO about it.
I have an open-cab Delta contractor saw, a closed-cab Jet 6" jointer and a closed-cab 14" Jet bandsaw. I'll need to get a hood fitting for the jointer and close up the base of my table saw.

My hope is to run the DC piping along the floor.
However, it would be better if I could have it along the perimeter and not in the middle where I'm tripping over it. This would create a few corners.
I'm assuming this is bad for the DC's effectiveness. Can I remedy that with blast gates? Also, is it possible for me to use 3 or 4" piping? Or does this cut down on CFM too much?

[Bob Dodge]

Hi John,

The Delta 850 cannister dc might be a very good solution to your low ceiling height problem, mind you, I'm not a fan of cartridge filters on a single-stage dc. With a non-breatheable plastic lower bag, all of the light waste follows the airflow into the cartridge filter cavity, and tends to load the cartridge pleats and reduce airflow. As long as you're aware of that, and perform the required filter maintenance, that cartridge equipped dc should be fine.

The Delta 850 has some good and bad points going for it. There have been at least three model changes that I'm aware of with that dc. The original version had an 11" impeller, and newer versions I'm told go with a 12" impeller. The intake/outlet porting is all 6", which makes for a very free-breathing dc. This dc is immensely "hot-rodable". Every DC-850 I've seen, has the letters "Cont" clearly stamped on the motor name-plate. That means the motor is rated for "continuous" duty-cycle operation. It also has manual thermal overload protection.

So what's the downside? Well, some versions use a 4" air-flow restriction collar just inside of the 6" inlet-cover. That collar is simply tack-welded in place, and would be absolutely essential "IF" you're going to use the dc in an unrestricted fashion.(no filter,venting outside, or very short large diameter pipe). Hooked up to a proper duct-system, you can easily remove that restriction collar to increase airflow.

You should know that the original version of that dc, had only an 11" impeller, yet because of it's all 6" porting, it was the second highest drawing dc in the American Woodworker Magazine test, beating all of the 2hp dc's except for the 12" impeller equipped 2 hp Jet DC-1200. The Delta pulled 895 cfm. With the recently added 12" impeller, that Delta should easily flow 1000 cfm through a 10 ft test-pipe, 6" in diameter. That's 2hp dc territory, and is the reason why that restrictor is added. With proper ducting in place, you should still manage 800 cfm to at least one of your machines, with no overloading at the motor. From that 1st drop, you could easily run a 5" pipe to your other machines.

http://www.rd.com/americanwoodworker...Collection.pdf

Good luck, Bob

[Bob Dodge]

T.J.,

Here are some links to planning your ducting. Some of this may help you get a better foundation for getting started. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you can add your ducting one step at a time. Start out by doing your main run first, and that's most likely to your tablesaw. From that point, you can run a simple 4" flex-pipe for the time being, then eventually up-grade to a nice 5" smooth-walled main for the other machines.

That Delta can have the inlet facing up or down, and this allows for a few creative alternatives where ducting is concerned. There's always a way to coax a little extra performance from a dc, as long as you think "out-of-the-box".

In these links, pay particular attention to the Oneida branch configurations. You'll see that running the pipe around the perimeter of a room, may not be a very good idea. The shortest/straightest path is always best.

Remember, your dc is only as close to your machine as your duct-length. The dc will "see" each 90 degree elbow as 12 feet of straight-pipe, so avoid unnecessary use of elbows, and use nice long-radius turns wherever possible. Keep flex-hose use to an absolute minimum. At 4000 fpm, that flex-duct can have up to three times the resistance of a smooth-walled pipe.


http://www.airhand.com/designing.asp

Look at page 5,

http://www.oneida-air.com/design/ductguide.pdf

Now, you asked if you can use 3" and 4" pipe, and the answer is yes, but you'll have to do it properly, and sometimes "in combination" with another pipe. You have to "balance" the airflow. You always have to be mindful of what's happening velocity-wize, in your larger diameter main. Don't worry about that, I'll help you out there. Just give me a rough idea of what your shop floor-plan looks like, and the placement of your machines, and we can tackle it from there.

All the best,

Bob

[Marcus Ward]

While many will tell you that a cartridge is capable of finer filtration than a bag-filter, it is simply not the case. I have yet to see a single cartridge filter with an air-permebility rating of better than 20 cfm/sq.ft. A high-quality needle-felt filter, will routinely flow better than 50-60 cfm/ sq.ft., and filter to 1 micron and better. In my own shop, I use a small industrial dc from Pyradia/Belfab. The 1/8" thick needle-felt filters are superb. While I have an ambient air-cleaner, I have never once used it since buying my dc. My shop's air-quality is pristine. I have never once removed my top-filter for cleaning, and I've had that dc for almost 4 years now. Just a quick shake, and I'm good to go.

While this is very good salesmanship, the problem is that bag type filters don't have the surface are of a folded cartridge like the 35a from Wynn. You say the bag is as good, but too many people, including Bill Pentz say otherwise. Subjective experience is worth very little although I'm sure you've talked the original poster into going with what you've said, I still think he should read this website I posted earlier.

[T.J. Mahaffey]

While this is very good salesmanship, the problem is that bag type filters don't have the surface are of a folded cartridge like the 35a from Wynn. You say the bag is as good, but too many people, including Bill Pentz say otherwise. Subjective experience is worth very little although I'm sure you've talked the original poster into going with what you've said, I still think he should read this website I posted earlier.

Marcus, I want to assure you that I haven't ignored your advice. I've been going back to Bill Pentz' site many times and will do so again many times in the future. I'll be honest, though. There's such a ridiculous amount of information there that I often get disgusted at how little I actually learn by reading it because I'm overhwhelmed by statistics and such.

My plan is to buy a cyclone when we can afford it.

[Bryan Cowing]

I recently made one and power it with an old 3 hp 4 bag DC. Since I have a 13 ft ceiling and tight for room, I made brackets to mount the DC on the wall and have my belt sander below. I replaced the old bags 2 years ago with better felt bags. I made the cyclone per instructions and added an extra 5/8" melamine disc on the top with a 6" hole to fit the pipe from the DC. I have the Pentz cyclone in the corner and have a melamine lid on a plastic garbage can. The lid is fastened to the wall with loose pipe straps so I can pull the rubbermaid garbage can out to empty and the cyclone stays put . The 20 yr old Grizzly generates enough suction to flatten pipes and the garbage can. I had to put a wood hoop in the can and a relief valve ( dryer cold air backflow preventer with a spring) in the snap lock pipe system I use. The homemade blast gates have a magnetic switch to shut off the DC.

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus, I want to assure you that I haven't ignored your advice. I've been going back to Bill Pentz' site many times and will do so again many times in the future. I'll be honest, though. There's such a ridiculous amount of information there that I often get disgusted at how little I actually learn by reading it because I'm overhwhelmed by statistics and such.

My plan is to buy a cyclone when we can afford it.

Ah well Bill Pentz's problem is that he writes 250 words when he only needs 20. The main page of his site has most of his recommendations about what to do on a limited budget. The reason I push the HF DC is because the wynn 35a cartridge filter is designed to fit onto it directly without any modification - although fitting the delta is trivial, it's still not a direct plugin retrofit. Also for the cost, figure 150 for the HF DC and 100 for the filter, you're out 250, cheaper than the delta new. Plus the delta comes stock with 5 micron bags - 5 micron and smaller dust is where all the danger lies in woodworking dust. The wynn cartridge does .5 micron and has much more surface area than a bag. Granted, the HF is a cheapy, probably a cheaper motor than the delta and the impeller isn't as big, but if you're planning on replacing it in a few years anyhow - if it were me - I'd buy the cheaper one to save some bucks since you're not planning on having it forever. Just my 2 cents.