Dominos for dining room chairs?

[george wilson]

I qualified my statement to say"If you want the chairs to become heirlooms",so it wasn't really condescending,nor meant to be. The truth is the truth,though. The chairs might last 10 years,or more. But,they aren't going to become future antiques,nor is much of the furniture we buy in stores today.

Whether today or 200 years ago,wood is wood,and short cuts do not constitute having another way to skin a cat.This forum should be driven by the need to give and receive the best possible advice,don't you think?

Dominos are simply not as strong as real joinery. They are just quicker ways to get instant gratification,not the best and most enduring results.That's all I am saying. They are not a legitimate other way to skin a cat.

People are obviously free to do their work in any way they please. But,they shouldn't begin to think that these shortcut methods are the very best way to do woodworking. If you want a quick job,and do not care if the piece lasts,that's fine. Don't be mislead,though. If the piece is important to you,do it right. Am I wrong?

[Jeff Monson]

Thomas and Dave,

Your chairs are both REALLY nice, I appreciate all the great feedback.
I'm going to make my 1st one out of pine to cut down on mistake costs and also use a plan to get the hang of it, if all goes well I would like to design something myself.

[Prashun Patel]

My humble $.02:

Glue technology, like finishing technology has greatly improved over time. The need for an M&T joint is PROBABLY reduced today vis-a-vis a century ago. If you'd like yr work to live for a century, but want to employ the convenience of 'modern' joinery tools, then use the best glue, and longer and thicker tenons or dowels out of high quality stock.

Don't get me wrong, I admire M&T as much as the next guy; but my appreciation is for the craftsmanship it demands (and might imply for the rest of the piece's construction). But I do think it's poss to make an heirloom using newer technology as well.

[george wilson]

Glue lines still crack eventually. Don't be deluded that you can get by without proper joinery. That would be a mistake. Relying upon glue isn't the right way to do the best work.Appreciation for craftsmanship must include appreciation for proper construction,too.Routing out a mortise in the side rail of a chair to receive a domino only weakens that rail.It makes it easier for a crack to start and split the rail open.

Someone mentioned Fine Woodworking's unrealistic joint tests. I would agree on this basis: The repeated rocking back and forth in a joint like a chair,is gradually going to start the glue line cracking. That is different from simply suddenly squeezing a joint till it fails. When that glue line starts to crack,it is soon all over for the joint that relies upon glue solely. Glue should not be what you are relying on. There is nothing better than the mechanical strength,cross pinned in,of a real mortise and tennon joint to make the joint long lasting.

There is so much badly made furniture being sold out there,I wonder,and the curators wonder,I've heard them say so,if our society will leave any antiques,except for plastic drink bottles,which last 700 years in landfills. I don't want to contribute to this sad state of affairs,and I would hope that woodworkers who should know better,would not want to,either.

[Cody Colston]

Well, the OP said: "I'm looking for some input from other domino users. The chair is all loose tennon construction, so are dominos suited for this task? Also will using the domino cutter be quicker and more accurate than cutting the tenon's with a router? "

Sounds like he is intent on using dominos and wanted to hear from others who had used them. So, all this discussion around whether they are strong enough for chairs is really just academic.

I've observed that on woodworking forums you can ask the time and frequently get told how to build a watch.

[Mike Henderson]

There was an article in an early issue of FWW by Hoadley (did I spell that right), an expert on wood. He did a study of the failure of joints. What he found is that the wood the glue is attached to fails, not the glue itself. So I doubt if there's any magic glue that's going to give you a lot longer life in a chair joint. The joint just gets too much stress, especially in chairs without stretchers or arms.

Let me comment again about the need for corner blocks. I've seen lots of old chairs with joints that completely failed but the chair was still being used because the corner blocks were holding it together. You could "rock" on a dining room chair.

I'm sure George has seen the same thing - and lots of other people.

Mike

[Hoadley's research would indicate that the joint with the most contact area will last the longest.]

[Chris Padilla]

I've observed that on woodworking forums you can ask the time and frequently get told how to build a watch.

C'mon, Cody, this is true on ANY forum! I frequenty have water-cooler discussions with my colleagues and work and it is amazing the paths our conversations take...I think it is just natural and human nature. Okay, back on topic....

My personal and uniformed opinion is that dominos would work just fine but I honestly don't know how long it would last and neither does anyone else here know. We'll broach this topic again in 100 years and then we'll know.

As Mike alluded to, there can be many reasons a chair over time fails: the glue, the joint, and the wood can all be stressed in different or unexpected ways and over time fail. Stress comes in the form of use, environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, water, sun, bugs, magnetic fields, lava, whatever...) and perhaps most importantly: TIME. Everything has a time limit on it....

[george wilson]

True,corner blocks definitely help. What I am trying to explain is that mortising into the end grain of a relatively narrow rail leaves only a small amount of wood around that mortise . That's where the failure will start,unless the domino,which cannot be as wide as the rail,and is therefore much smaller,and weaker than it should be,fails first.

The corner blocks were the ONLY thing holding those old English chairs together. Problem is,their screws can only be so deep,because the wood they are screwing into was only so thick. So,once their glue lines cracked,the chairs were still loose as a goose until the screws wobbled enough to finally let go.

These new products like dominos and biscuits,that seduce people into believing that they are good ways of doing work,really do much more harm than good. I have used biscuits myself,on things I've made "quick and dirty",for the house. But I do not delude myself into thinking that it was the best way to do the job. That kind of misinformation being drilled into people's heads is very harmful to the future of good woodworking.

[Jeff Monson]

Well, the OP said: "I'm looking for some input from other domino users. The chair is all loose tennon construction, so are dominos suited for this task? Also will using the domino cutter be quicker and more accurate than cutting the tenon's with a router? "

Sounds like he is intent on using dominos and wanted to hear from others who had used them. So, all this discussion around whether they are strong enough for chairs is really just academic.

I've observed that on woodworking forums you can ask the time and frequently get told how to build a watch.

Amen to that

Mike, your point of corner blocks is very good and the chair plan I have calls for these blocks and they are very good size.

[Mark Hulette]

If you don't have a looming deadline (I know how the SWMBO-induced timelines can be) I'd make a sample out of pine as you suggest and live with it for a while and give it a real test drive for a bit.

At least you'll know how it feels and get an idea if it starts to rack quickly!

Good luck- I've got a Domino and have been looking at Jeff Miller's book thinking about adapting his ideas to the loose tenon.

[george wilson]

Amen to that?,well,hopefully someone may benefit from reading the posts.

[Dave Avery]

Glue lines still crack eventually. Don't be deluded that you can get by without proper joinery. That would be a mistake. Relying upon glue isn't the right way to do the best work.Appreciation for craftsmanship must include appreciation for proper construction,too.Routing out a mortise in the side rail of a chair to receive a domino only weakens that rail.It makes it easier for a crack to start and split the rail open.

Someone mentioned Fine Woodworking's unrealistic joint tests. I would agree on this basis: The repeated rocking back and forth in a joint like a chair,is gradually going to start the glue line cracking. That is different from simply suddenly squeezing a joint till it fails. When thast glue line starts to crack,it is soon all over for the joint that relies upon glue solely. Glue should not be what you are relying on. There is nothing better than the mechanical strength,cross pinned in,of a real mortise and tennon joint to make the joint long lasting.

There is so much badly made furniture being sold out there,I wonder,and the curators wonder,I've heard them say so,if our society will leave any antiques,except for plastic drink bottles,which last 700 years in landfills. I don't want to contribute to this sad state of affairs,and I would hope that woodworkers who should know better,would not want to,either.

Hi George,

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that loose tenons are "the best" way to make a chair. Unless everyone here is expected to have heirloom furniture all around the house, you have to cut corners somewhere on some items. I have a big job, 3 children, and a wife that I like to spend time with. Time for me is EVERYTHING. While I can afford to pay $1,600 per Moser chair - times 10 - I chose to pay $1,000 in materials and spend ~100 hours. Making traditional M&T joints to similar tolerances as Domino's - at my skill level - would have taken at twice as long or more without appreciably increasing the chair life. At 100 hours it was beginning to become less than "fun". At 200 hours it would have been pure drudgery. So while you're right, pinned traditional M&T joints are better than Domino's, not everyone wants or needs to build the best possible piece of furniture all the time. Best. Dave.

[Mike Henderson]

Hi George,

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that loose tenons are "the best" way to make a chair. Unless everyone here is expected to have heirloom furniture all around the house, you have to cut corners somewhere on some items. I have a big job, 3 children, and a wife that I like to spend time with. Time for me is EVERYTHING. While I can afford to pay $1,600 per Moser chair - times 10 - I chose to pay $1,000 in materials and spend ~100 hours. Making traditional M&T joints to similar tolerances as Domino's - at my skill level - would have taken at twice as long or more without appreciably increasing the chair life. At 100 hours it was beginning to become less than "fun". At 200 hours it would have been pure drudgery. So while you're right, pinned traditional M&T joints are better than Domino's, not everyone wants or needs to build the best possible piece of furniture all the time. Best. Dave.

In addition to the time to make ten chairs, it gets really boring (for me) to make ten chairs. Doing the same thing over and over is not very creative or enjoyable - it's just a chore.

There's a joke about the woodworker who was selling a dining room chair at a fair for $300. A customer came in and really liked the chair.

"I'd like eight of those. How much for the package?"

"That'll be $3,000 for eight" replied the woodworker.

After thinking that over, the customer said, "$300 for one but $3,000 for eight? How does that add up?"

"Well," said the woodworker "The first one was fun."

Mike

[J. Z. Guest]

My vote is that Dominos will be fine. One thing I like about our modern joinery tools is that they generally ensure a good joint fit, which is the hardest part of making hand-cut joinery.

Another thing to consider is that even though the Domino is super-expensive, this is one project that would pay it off right away. High quality dining room chairs are quite expensive. Heck, even low quality ones that are joined with only hardware are expensive!

Reading this thread, another thought occurred to me: M&T is not the ideal joint for a chair. Dovetail is. Then, when/if the glue fails, one is still good to go.

Another viewpoint: What if we accept that there is so much stress on the joint that it is eventually GOING to move? What about using a means of joinery that has a bit of flex to it? In an old Fine Woodworking article, I think it was in relation to dowel joinery and why it fails, the author said he tried silicone adhesive with this reasoning. Don't remember how it turned out.

How about pocket screws without glue? Then, when they loosen up, just re-tighten the screws? The screw holes would need to strip out before the joint would fail in any other manner.

[george wilson]

Jeremy,men figured out the best way to make chairs hundreds of years ago. How you intend to dovetail them,I'm not sure,but,if that would have been the best way,they would have done it that way,the market being competetive for them just as it is today. Except that the clients were a lot more savvy that your average one is today.

I am not saying that everything has to be done the same way as it was hundreds of years ago.I don't even make 18th.C. furniture for myself. But,certain ways are better. Shortcuts are not the same thing as doing the best work. Correct joinery can be applied to the most modern designs.

I understand Dave's point that everyone doesn't want to make the very best furniture all the time. I agree,I don't either,especially if it's a rush job your wife wants in a hurry.I used biscuits to join together a large table's top by Thanksgiving. Though I don't think for an instant that it's better than spline joints. I did put plenty of biscuits in,at least.

What I hope doesn't happen,but am afraid it already has happened,is that people get it into their heads that these gadgets for simplifying woodworking become accepted as gospel. People start thinking that they are the best and true way to do work.They are not. Glue may be "improved",which is not really correct in all aspects of application,but glue is still not perfect. It can still crack if stressed.Some of these modern glues,like Ca,and epoxys will not stand the test of time. Making correct joints is still the best thing to do,and that needs to be remembered.Screws are not the right answer,either,especially if screwed into end grain..