Differences in stain quality

[Aaron Wingert]

I'm preparing to do a lot of trim work in my home and will be using red oak. I'll be staining the trim before installation and will apply water-based poly once the trim is installed(can't laquer due to having my pregnant wife in the house and would prefer to avoid using super-smelly products for that reason).

I've always used minwax stains but haven't ever been too impressed with the results. I've never used sanding sealer on oak but may do so in an effort to reduce the darker appearance of the open flat grain that I normally get with oak.

Is minwax stain as good as anything else out there or can anyone recommend something that is perhaps thicker or has more pigment?

Can I get away with water-based gloss poly over the top of oil-based stain?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Marc Casebolt]

Aaron,

Have you ever tried using aniline dyes instead of stain? A few different colors of dye mixed with water can get you just about any look you need, so long as you don't have to get too dark, plus it does not hide the grain like stain can. It also doesn't smell or have all the fumes that you are trying to avoid.

You will have the added step of wetting the wood and sanding prior to the dye, but that is very easy to do, and does not take much time. After the dye I always lock it down with a quick coat of shellac which will give you some fumes to deal with, but it dries very quickly. You can then use any finish you want over the shellac with no problems.

I have found dyes to be much easier to use, and much less messy than stain. It is also a lot easier to get the exact color I want using dye.

Might be worth a look,

Marc

[Stephen Musial]

What sort of look are you going for? Amber shellac over oak gives a wonderful aged appearance and tones down the contrast you sometimes get. The picture in my avatar is red oak with 2 coats of amber shellac. Some of the oak is 300 year old reclaimed wood and some (mostly the molding) is modern stuff. The new stuff took 3 coats to get the same color as the old growth.

[Aaron Wingert]

Thanks guys. I'll be aiming for sort of a cherry tint, somewhat darker than a clear/natural oak stain.

Oak isn't my first choice. My options are pine, oak and cherry from my supplier. Pine's out due to durability (twin boys on the way). Cherry's out due to budget, leaving oak as my choice. Alder would be nice but my supplier doesn't carry it and they give me a sweet price that keeps me from shopping elsewhere.

I've got a lot of trim to do and have to keep it relatively easy.

[Jim Becker]

If you are going to use a water borne finish over the oil based stain, you need to either wait until the stain is fully cured (could be weeks in some cases) or put on a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac to insure that the water borne finish will adhere properly to your trim. If your trim installation allows for pre-staining, you may want to opt to spray the shellac and your first coat or two of the water borne finish and just put another coat of the clear on after it's up and you've filled any fastener holes with a color matched filler pencil.

[Todd Burch]

I'm preparing to do a lot of trim work in my home and will be using red oak. I'll be staining the trim before installation and will apply water-based poly once the trim is installed(can't laquer due to having my pregnant wife in the house and would prefer to avoid using super-smelly products for that reason).

Do you need the ruggedness and ugliness of poly? I would recommend a good brush on varnish. (like Pratt and Lambert 38)

I've always used minwax stains but haven't ever been too impressed with the results.

Newsflash - no one has. Minwax sucks.

I've never used sanding sealer on oak but may do so in an effort to reduce the darker appearance of the open flat grain that I normally get with oak.

If you do this and then try to stain with Minwax, you'll be wasting your time and money. What little bits of very large pigments there are in Minwax stains (amidst the over abundance of cheap and highly thinned oil), the pigment won't have anything to fall into, and thus, very little color as a result. (The good news is that since there isn't as much Minwax going onto the wood, it will look that much less MUDDIER!)

Is minwax stain as good as anything else out there or can anyone recommend something that is perhaps thicker or has more pigment?

Hmmmm. Let me think.... No. Minwax is not as good as ANYTHING else.

Go to a professional wood finishers supply in your area and ask them what they recommend. If they say Minwax, leave.

The best thing to do (because this is what I did, and doing so caused me to leap frog my other wood-finishing peers) was to take a piece of furniture or woodwork you just REALLY admire to the store with you. Tell them you want to reproduce that finish on your trim. If the person can't help you, ask for a more senior person. If no one can help you there, go to a different store. This is the best advice I can give you. If this is a good store and they want your business, they will explain finishing products and schedules that will blow your socks off.

Todd

[Phil Phelps]

You might call around to different paint stores and ask for Watco stain. I remember this to be one of the best stains I ever used. However, that was soooo long ago and I haven't seen Watco in my supply house in years. Worth a try.

[Aaron Wingert]

Thanks everyone. Todd, good advice. I got some Cabot stain at Lowes and although it didn't give the effect I'm wanting it looked tons better than Minwax ever did. Much thicker stuff, tons more pigment. Still looking though...............

I finally got the furniture that I need to color match the trim with. I'm going to make a trip to a local paint store that a lot of pros use and see if they can suggest anything. Trying to make oak look sort of like cherry is going to be a challenge I think...Trying to find a local source for alder trim now. I'd use pine but I need the wood to be at least somewhat durable against baby gates and kids' toys.

[Mark Patoka]

I like using Watco Danish oil on oak. Works well and gets into the grain. I mostly use the Black Walnut and Cherry colors for what I do but there is a good selection of colors available at my Woodcraft. Lowe's also carries a small selection.

[Aaron Wingert]

I like using Watco Danish oil on oak. Works well and gets into the grain. I mostly use the Black Walnut and Cherry colors for what I do but there is a good selection of colors available at my Woodcraft. Lowe's also carries a small selection.

Not a bad idea....They have "red mahogany", which might match my dark cherry pretty well.

[Aaron Wingert]

Going with dye. Looks awesome and is a perfect match.

[Steve Clardy]

I've been slowly changing to Cabot. Good stuff

[John Keeton]

Aaron, whatever you come up with, let me encourage you to apply at least one, possibly two coats of finish PRIOR to installation. That will give you a chance to use steel wool or whatever method you choose to knock down the nibs before the trim is applied. MUCH easier than doing all of that after it is installed.

I don't do it for a living as some here do, but I have installed stain grade trim in several rental units, and a couple of residences. When the trim is installed, I will take a stain rag and lightly wipe just the very edge of the cut on miters, apply glue to the rest of the cut, and install. I always do returns where needed, so there is no end grain showing.

After installation, fill the holes as Becker says, and apply one or two finish coats.

[Prashun Patel]

If you use an aniline dye, you'll need to shellac it (dewaxed) before applying the topcoat. If you do not, the water in the topcoat will redissolve the dye a little and cause lifting (DAMHIKT).

Alternatively, you can experiment by adding the dye directly to your top coat (if it's water based).

Alternatively, you can apply an oil-based topcoat directly over the dye (once it's dry) before you put the trim up. That way you can do it in a place where wifey won't be around.

[Aaron Wingert]

Good tips John!

Shawn I'm thinking that I'll be using Deft as my topcoats over the TransTint dye. The wife will probably get to spend the night at her mom's place.