Seeking DC advice for using Delta 50-760

[Matt Stiegler]

The short version: what's the best set-up for a 50-760 if you can't just wheel it up to each machine and connect with a 10' 4" hose?

The long version: I have a stock Delta 50-760 in my basement shop, hooked up by 10' of 4" flex hose to my cabinet saw (or jointer or planer, if I'm using them at the time, all have 4" ports). I also have a 2.5" flex run that I connect to my OSS or use by hand with DP or ROS. Blast gates for both lines, hose lies on the floor. When I've made more than a little dust I run an air filter and wear an N99 paper mask.

Now I have a bandsaw on the other end of my shop where I can't just wheel the DC due to low ceilings (pipes running down center of basement ceiling). BS is under 15' from DC, maybe 20-25' of line needed to get there. So my immediate need is to figure out how to get DC to the BS. I also have a sharkguard for my TS I haven't connected to DC yet.

The least ambitious solution would be to just keep the set-up I have, add a couple wyes to my TS line so I can get 4" hose to the bandsaw and 2.5" to the guard and call it done. Pros: cheap, easy, and perhaps effective DC at the TS. Cons: probably poor DC at the bandsaw, and lots of hose-jockeying.

A slightly more expensive option might be to get some 5" or even 6" flex hose and use that as a main line from which the TS and BS would feed. Would that help get enough air from the BS? Would I need to modify the stock twin 4" intake on the DC, or just use a reducer?

I have 3 factors that limit my ability to consider some of the more ambitious solutions like cyclones and permanent overhead runs -- I can't vent outside, I have 7' ceilings with parts at 6' and walls obstructed by pipe, and I can't drop $1000 on DC now. So I think what I need is to figure out the best way to make the 50-760 work.

I was excited about the Thein filters because they looked like a cheap way to both improve my DC and lower its height so I could get it around the shop better. But the need for a pre-separator seems like it undercuts the DC performance, and/or the lowered height, and/or the mobility. And I'm not excited about spending a ton of time figuring out how to modify my DC and make a pre-separator.

If I sound confused, I am. Any suggestions?

[Brian Tymchak]

Hi Matt,

Based on my personal experienc, I think your least ambitious solution will work ok. You probably won't have 1200 cfm at the bandsaw but probably enough to do a good enough job.

I have that same model DC in my basement shop and it does a good job for me. I have the TS, BS, Jointer, Belt/Disc Sander all hooked up with 4" connections with good performance at all ports. Will soon hook up the miter saw once I build the bench for it. I will add a "T" on the TS run for connection to the router table which will be an extension wing on the TS. I also have a 2 1/2" connection above my bench.

I parked the DC in the corner of my basement and ran 2 4" trunks of spiral metal duct down either side of my shop on the floor. One trunk is about 15' long, the other about 20'. I cut in 8 T's, 4 on each trunk. Connections from the trunk to machines are with 4" flex hose and range from 4' to 12' long for the TS in the middle of the floor. Each port has a blast gate. With all other blast gates closed, I get pretty good draw at any of them. In fact, I get pretty good draw even when 2 gates are open. I'm pretty impressed with the DC. The band saw is at the end of the 15' trunk, so probably a 20' run total for it. The spiral metal duct may be helping me get better performance since its smooth and doesn't put up the resistance that flex hose does. The spiral duct was $20 per 10' section. I used plastic fittings instead of the expensive spiral metal fittings with copper wire jumpers across those fittings to complete the static grounding circuit. I have another thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=122859
where I posted some pictures of when I tried paper bags. The last picture shows the DC and the connections to the trunks on either side. Don't know if this is helpful.

I plan at some point to put a first stage separator on it but I haven't worked out the final solution. I was thinking of putting a 5" -> 4" reducer on the DC, running 4" flex to a trash can separator, and 4" flex from the separator to a 4" splitter like the one that came with the DC (if I can find such a fitting). Wouldn't be pretty, but hopefully would work well enough.

Brian

[Matt Stiegler]

Thanks for your response, Brian. I guess the $64,000 question to answer is what level of performance is good enough. Pentz says I need 800 cfm at each tool. My impression, having done neither measurements nor calculations, is that that the 50-760 does that on 4" flex runs under 10 feet. If I run an extended 4" line to the BS (even if not flex), I expect I'll fall under 800 cfm for my bandsaw, but I guess that just means I wear a mask during and after using the BS.

I like your idea of running rigid trunk lines on the floor, that may be a good way to go for me, too.


I was going to ask a question about adding a Thien filter, but I started reading related threads and now my head hurts.

Hi Matt,

Based on my personal experienc, I think your least ambitious solution will work ok. You probably won't have 1200 cfm at the bandsaw but probably enough to do a good enough job.

I have that same model DC in my basement shop and it does a good job for me. I have the TS, BS, Jointer, Belt/Disc Sander all hooked up with 4" connections with good performance at all ports. Will soon hook up the miter saw once I build the bench for it. I will add a "T" on the TS run for connection to the router table which will be an extension wing on the TS. I also have a 2 1/2" connection above my bench.

I parked the DC in the corner of my basement and ran 2 4" trunks of spiral metal duct down either side of my shop on the floor. One trunk is about 15' long, the other about 20'. I cut in 8 T's, 4 on each trunk. Connections from the trunk to machines are with 4" flex hose and range from 4' to 12' long for the TS in the middle of the floor. Each port has a blast gate. With all other blast gates closed, I get pretty good draw at any of them. In fact, I get pretty good draw even when 2 gates are open. I'm pretty impressed with the DC. The band saw is at the end of the 15' trunk, so probably a 20' run total for it. The spiral metal duct may be helping me get better performance since its smooth and doesn't put up the resistance that flex hose does. The spiral duct was $20 per 10' section. I used plastic fittings instead of the expensive spiral metal fittings with copper wire jumpers across those fittings to complete the static grounding circuit. I have another thread: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=122859
where I posted some pictures of when I tried paper bags. The last picture shows the DC and the connections to the trunks on either side. Don't know if this is helpful.

I plan at some point to put a first stage separator on it but I haven't worked out the final solution. I was thinking of putting a 5" -> 4" reducer on the DC, running 4" flex to a trash can separator, and 4" flex from the separator to a 4" splitter like the one that came with the DC (if I can find such a fitting). Wouldn't be pretty, but hopefully would work well enough.

Brian

[Paul Wunder]

Matt,

Are you using the stock Delta upper bag on your 50-760? If so, that is pretty tall. Perhaps you could add a short filter cartridge on top (Wynn Environmental has them) and that may give you the needed clearance. Also, when I originally set mine up in my height challenged basement, I reversed the motor/filter assembly to gain more height. The instructions tell you how.

Paul

[Chris Stolicky]

I have the same machine setup in a closet to dampen noise, connected to 6" 26-gauge metal pipe. It is necked down to 4" right before the unit and run through the WC version 1-stage separator. The plan is to build a Thien separator or find room for a Onieda SDD-type setup (less likely though due to space constraints). A Wynn filter is also possible at some point.

My longest run is about 16' to a ~7' flex hose to my bandsaw. It all seems to work pretty good. Just make sure you seal the fitting of the metal ducting. A little caulking or good tape will work. None of it is pretty, but it works. I do only run it with one gate open at a time.

[Cameron Reddy]

Matt,

You won't get anywhere close to 800 CFM from a 4" pipe. And the 50-760 will not under the best circumstances give you even half of its "rated" 1200 CFM. Bill Pentz has the numbers, but I think about the max you can get even from a 5" line is around 580 CFM.

If I were you, I'd run solid 5" pipe to your distant machine and split that 5" line into a 4" and a 2.5" at the machine. Plug the 4 into the machine port, and run a 2.5" loc-line around to wherever dust seems to escape from the cutting process. I'd also split the 50-760's 5" intake into a 4" and a 2.5" line at every machine possible. The point being, you might as well get all the CFM at each machine that the Delta can give you.

The CFM number is what it is, but using two pick up ports increases the total dust collection by a whole bunch.

Cameron Reddy

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Matt,

Are you using the stock Delta upper bag on your 50-760? If so, that is pretty tall. Perhaps you could add a short filter cartridge on top (Wynn Environmental has them) and that may give you the needed clearance. Also, when I originally set mine up in my height challenged basement, I reversed the motor/filter assembly to gain more height. The instructions tell you how.

Paul

I am running a similar machine -- a used 1.5 hp Powermatic 073. It claimed, when it was new, 900CFM at 10". I have spent a LOT of time working on many of the same issues (even involving my Father in Law who has a PhD in engineering)...I think you really have 3 separate problems to solve:

1) Better air quality (filter containment)
2) Maximizing the power you have (minimizing the pressure drop and maintaining needed Velocity (FPM))
3) Safely keeping the tubes out of your way

I have solved first two for my own shop and am working through #3 this weekend.

First -- air quality is a world of difference after I installed a Wynn 35A kit...I went for the new nano .5 micron ($165). But I am sure you'd benefit from any of the three filters available -- Wynn has a great web site, awesome customer support complete with suggestions and photos for retrofitting your delta model. It has not increased the overall height by more than a few inches at worst...certainly right around 6'. I was most concerned about reduced flow vs. the OEM 30 micron bag...can't tell any difference. When I stop running it, I give a slap and a big clump of chips and dust drop into the collection bag, but it doesn't seem to be plugging the filter (yet). If that becomes an issue, adding an Oneida Super Dust deputy is next -- cyclone designed for single stage machines in our hp range and not additional height needed. But, they are a tad pricey at $285. BTW, you mentioned that you thought maybe a pre-separator would undercut the DC...it does add ~ 1" of static pressure drop but a plugged-up filter will add double that or more. Taking the bulk of the chips/fines out before they plug the filter (whatever type of filter) keeps the air moving at fullest pressure. Said another way...if the filter starts to plug-up then the air at the other end of the line (the machine end) will move slower.

Second -- managing pressure drop and velocity. Rigid as much as possible is really a huge jump in efficiency...essentially for every foot of line the velocity slows twice as fast in flex as in rigid. At 25' of line to the BS, with a high minimum cfm requirement, the 1.5hp will have trouble maintaining velocity across a 6" duct. My solution is to use 4" rigid (I am going with galvanized snap lock from HD/Lowes) as much as possible...once i stop moving the machines around! Since I am running fewer linear feet I determined I could likely support 5", but more hassle reducing...finding the fitting for a 10 year old DC...yada yada.

Third -- not sure I can help here every basement is probably too different. But, still seems crazy that I'm taking the pipe up to the ceiling only to bring it back to floor level!! adding 12 feet to the line with just the up and down!. on the other hand since I am only 5'4" I have not really worried about the low ceilings...but I have just over 7" most of the way around.

Hope this helps.
Matt