New Uni, No Brake

[Paul Ryan]

The recent thread considering the pro's and con's of the new uni, and the sawstop PCS, has got me thinking.

Delta has been working on the design and development of the new Uni since sawstop technology has been around and proven. My question to myself and now the rest of the woodworkers and speculators here is. Why do you think Delta didn't develop their own brake system and offer it on their new Uni. Make it an accessory like a 52" fence. It isn't hard to add the electronics or take them off. The electronics would have added cost to the saw. But I think it would have really made their saw more attractive. Considering the price it is now usually in the $3200 range. Add $1000 for the electronics and the saw is in the price range of the ICS.

I can't believe it is a legal issue. Look at the automobile companies. Early on not all cars came with air bags. It didn't become standard until the government made it mandatory. So the legal begals of the auto companies must know how to protect their clients from lawsuits on cars that didn't have air bags. Delta could use the same defense as the auto manufacturers did.

I am biased since I own a sawstop. But after reading the thoughts of those that are deciding on a new premium saw. I think many would buy a new Uni that has a break on it, over a sawstop in a heart beat. Due to Delta's history of dependability. It seems to me, month after month more and more consumers see the benifit of sawstops saftey device, and are chosing their saws because if it. My local woodcraft says they sell 5 to 1 sawstops to everything else. If delta offered a saw with a break I bet the ratio would be closer to 3 to 1.

Early on in sawstop's life, if the same question was asked, "which saw, uni or sawstop. The majority would have said uni. Now after reading the responeses the majority seems to say sawstop. The saw and company has shown some dependability, and woodworkers now know it isn't just a gimic. But I think it is more than that. Many of us understand what a life saving device it can be. That is what has made sawstop so popular.

I am interested in others takes. Pro's & cons of a Uni with a break.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Patent issues. I'm sure Delta has a room full of people trying to find a way to stop the blade that doesn't violate Sawstop's patent, but I doubt there's a good way to do it that is substantively different than Sawstop's way.


FWIW, I'd buy a Sawstop over a Uni even without the brake. Their customer service seems second-to-none. I'd rather deal with a smaller company where I can actuall talk to a real person, than a mega-congolmerate.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm fairly sure that SawStop has a bunch of patents on the saw stopping mechanism - to the point where it might be tough for another company to use a brake mechanism on their saw. I haven't looked up the patents but if the original patents issued about five years ago, there's easily 12 more years of patent protection, maybe more.

We probably won't see any other companies with blade brakes until the patents run out. There's no reason for SawStop to license another saw manufacturer now.

Mike

[Rob Steffeck]

From the research I did when trying to decide which saw I would buy just 6 weeks ago, I don't think you can add a brake to the Uni and say that its comparable to the SawStop ICS in any way, shape, or form. As far as quality of materials / fit / finish, the new Uni is in the same class as the PCS, not ICS. Quite frankly, I thought the new Uni was a bit below the quality of the PCS. So from that respect, you are getting a killer deal with the PCS because you are getting a saw in the same class as the new Uni with the addition of a brake for the same price.

So to answer your poll question, would I consider a new Uni with a brake for the price of an ICS, I would say 100% no. The Uni with a brake would have to come in at the PCS price.

If I could add a brake to my new General 650 for $1,000 I would definitely consider it.

[Jeff Bratt]

I can't believe it is a legal issue. Look at the automobile companies. Early on not all cars came with air bags. It didn't become standard until the government made it mandatory.

They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.

Delta could use the same defense as the auto manufacturers did.

Delay, and deny the new technology is worth implementing??? Naw, they'd never do that...

[Van Huskey]

I avoid buying anything with a break.

[Kevin Groenke]

Why support the copycat why you can support the innovator?

Who's going to give you better customer service?

[johnny means]

There's no reason for SawStop to license another saw manufacturer now.

Mike

Steve Gass has already said that he would never give any company, including his exclusive rights to his blade brake technology.

The other companies just don't think they can turn a profit by making safety their top priority. I guarantee that they have discussed this at length in their boardrooms and have spent thousands doing study groups and crunching numbers. As long as they can sell machines based on their history, why would they look forward?

I own an ICS and would have chosen a brake equipped Uni if it meant I could get the Unifence as an option.

[Gary Muto]

[QUOTE=Jeff Bratt;1360358]They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.

cars had airbags in the mid 70's. Nobody wanted them. that was back when most of us didn't use the seatbelts that were mandatory.

[Rod Sheridan]

I avoid buying anything with a break.

What if it had a brake?

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Why support the copycat why you can support the innovator?

Who's going to give you better customer service?

I'm with Kevin, I'm hard pressed to think of any real innovation over the last 30 or 40 years, except for SawStop and the European manufacturers.

My home shop was full of General equipment, however over the last 2 years the jointer, planer, shaper and tablesaw have been replaced with a Hammer A3-31 and a B3 Winner.

Don't get me wrong, the General equipment was very nice, and as a Canadian I like having home grown equipment.

Unfortunately the NA equipment hasn't kept pace with the improvements and innovations in other equipment.

So yes I would reward SawStop for innovation, as opposed to Delta, whom I presume were one of the manufacturers not innovative enough to grab the braking system when it was offered to them.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

What if it had a brake?

Regards, Rod.

Thats a different issue..

If the PM I bought earlier this year had a brake as an option I would have bought it as long as the price stayed about $500 under the ICS. Not considering the brake I think the ICS is the best 10" cabinet saw for sale right now, then the PM, Delta and General. For me the PCS although a GREAT saw sits below them. FWIW the PM has tied the ICS in magazine reviews but I still think the ICS is better.

You seem to love the Euro machines the way I love their cars. But NA iron is a lot like a NA pickup, most of the rest of the world doesn't see it like we do but many here wouldn't know how to funtion without a truck. You can relearn to do the same jobs with a van or an SUV but most here don't won't to take the time/effort/cash to fix what they don't perceive as broken.


Paul mentioned in the OP that Woodcraft sells the SS 5-1 over other saws, I do not doubt this as I have heard similar accounts from many WC employees, but I submit it s not the whole story. WC has exclusive rights to the SS in many areas and the price structure prevents the ability to shop them around even if long distance mail order was allowed. In contrast my PM would have cost over $1,000 more had I bought it at WC considering the price (I got a great deal), shipping and tax.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thats a different issue..

If the PM I bought earlier this year had a brake as an option I would have bought it as long as the price stayed about $500 under the ICS.

Did you avoid buying the SS because you liked the PM more, or did you not feel the cost difference was justified?

You seem to love the Euro machines the way I love their cars. But NA iron is a lot like a NA pickup, most of the rest of the world doesn't see it like we do but many here wouldn't know how to function without a truck.

I agree, I initially selected the General TS over the Euro machines because of the lack of Euro dealers and no dado capability. I really liked the sliding table, riving knife and safety features however.

Now that Felder have a dealer in my town, and have dado capability, I went with the Euro product. It is different, and takes a different approach sometimes, I'm still re-training myself.


Paul mentioned in the OP that Woodcraft sells the SS 5-1 over other saws, I do not doubt this as I have heard similar accounts from many WC employees, but I submit it s not the whole story. WC has exclusive rights to the SS in many areas and the price structure prevents the ability to shop them around even if long distance mail order was allowed. In contrast my PM would have cost over $1,000 more had I bought it at WC considering the price (I got a great deal), shipping and tax.

Thanks for the info on WC, being Canadian I'm not familiar with pricing and sales territories in the US.


Regards, Rod.

[Matt Meiser]

Don't forget that SS reportedly wanted at least a few hundred dollars per saw to license the technology. And that was back when you could buy a top of the line TS for something like $1500.

[Karl Brogger]

With out taking the time to read others posts.

I am interested in others takes. Pro's & cons of a Uni with a break.

Pro's- Keeps people from cutting themselves when they're operating a dangerous tool stupidly

Con's- Allows people to think of it as a harmless tool, when its not.
Adds cost
Adds complexity


With that said, I mauled my thumb a while back with my head fully locked up my ass. I'm actually glad I did it. Didn't remove a digit, and reminded me to not make really stupid cuts, in realy small pieces. Still not in the market for a Sawstop.







Ignorance should be painful.