Craftsmanship - Standards

[James Taglienti]

Well, I could say the same thing about the hours I spent in grade school learning how to write in cursive. Or the time I spend in front of a computer screen.

[Frank Drew]

EVERYTHING made in the 'good old days" was not great. The reason you think so is because only the good things were worth preserving

George,

Please don't tell me what I think; as in your previous personal remark about me, you're wrong, and you're disagreeing with things I never said or implied.

[I have a first name and a last name; purposely addressing me by my last name seems uncivil in forum such as this.]

[george wilson]

I think Marv is forgetting that those apprentices started at 13,were fed and clothed,but not paid,and essentially were educated into the work. Today we hire adults who have to be paid to work in businesses. That's different.

[george wilson]

Sorry,Frank. I have known several people named Drew.

But,what do I know about the history of craftsmanship compared to you ? Obviously nothing. I bow to your eminence.

I will say that over the years in Williamsburg,we were sent to many,many training classes on subjects just like this one,to properly educate us on addressing the public when questions like this inevitably came up. We probably had the equivalent of a degree in the number of classes we attended. These classes were taught by our research,curatorial,and archaeological departments,as well as by the masters of the different trades shops so that everyone might have a working knowledge of the other trades in the museum. I spent about as much time in these classes as I did getting my college degree. And the teachers,being specialists,were most often of better quality than my college professors.

[Frank Drew]

George,

I agree that a lot can be learned by filing a steel block for its own sake.

Years ago, Tom Peters, who co-wrote the book In Search of Excellence, had a tv show on that theme, highlighting several companies that exemplified his ideas about excellent practices. One of them was a German manufacturer of super high-tech machine tools, all state-of-the-art, CNC controlled, etc., etc.

Their apprentices, however, began their education by having to hand file slightly irregular steel blocks, and only passed when the blocks were correctly sized in all dimensions and precisely right-angled at all intersections. The director of the company explained that their philosophy was that even though they made computer controlled machinery, the machines were still made of steel and an intimate understanding of the material and its working properties was essential.

[Gaz Palmer]

skilled craftsmanship, and not just in woodworking, used to be much, much more common than it is now, IMO.

Very true too. Even just going back 20yrs there were far more real craftsmen than there are now. IMHO much of the cause has been the lingering attempt to carry out craft training over much shorter periods. Often six months in some cases.

[george wilson]

I bow to your eminence,Frank,even though I have no idea what your background is. As I think I said,there are plenty of fine craftsmen out there,though,obviously,there are not as many as when current technology depended upon them.

I learned the old school way myself,and nothing came easy for me.

[Jim Koepke]

I hope everyone doesn't secretly hate me !.

I do not think people secretly hate you, George. I think we may envy many aspects of your life's path. I know many of us admire your work and enjoy seeing the pictures.

One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is that the modern day world and the world of even just 50 years ago are two very different places. A century ago, the labor laws were very different. Minimum wage did not exist. Children could work in mines and factories.

The filing of the cube reminds me of a man who once employed me in his business. He had a fondness for me because when assigned some of the menial jobs that had to be done, I wouldn't complain, I would just do them and get them done.

Filing a cube is like the menial task. If the apprentice takes the cube, smiles broadly and sets to the task, it says as much about them as if they moan and groan while muttering away while attacking the hunk of metal. The moaner and groaner likely would never make it to the point of having an "opportunity" to make a cube. The apprentice was likely working for room and board or may have been the son of someone working in the same facility.

There are still some situations where people perform work without monetary reward. Their numbers are shrinking. I did some work as an apprentice stage hand in the 1960s. I am not sure if such positions still exist. My father came by and visited. He could not understand why we were all just sitting around. He did not understand that you can not be swinging hammers or just moving stuff around on stage during a performance, but we had to be there for scene changes.

He would likely also see the filing of the cube as a waste of time.

When the technology changes, so must the training methods.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I am not sure if such positions still exist.

They do. There is a local here. I don't know what their work is like now, but they do still exist.

[george wilson]

I would like to remind everyone that I did not invent filing the cube,nor do I see the need to be defending it. I "filed the cube" of my own volition as a youth because I was very poor and had no other way of getting some things done. that was my own choice.

I see no need to continue to discuss/argue some points with certain people who already have their minds made up about everything they post. Some are in the habit of always seeming to be negative about just about everything they get into. I have had it with them.

I did have a unique career,and a unique educational opportunity to learn about woodworking,metal working,and their historic contexts.

[steven c newman]

To go from Apprentise to a Journeyman, WHAT would a test be like? Say for your "run-of-the-miller" Joiner? What would he have to do to pass? I spent five years learning to be a "Concrete-Carpenter" BEFORE I was allowed to call myself such. According to the local Union rules, I am a Carpenter/I, and at the entry level for such a Trade. But, what would a Joiner from Williamsburg have to pass to be called anything more than an Apprentise?

[Marv Werner]

"quote"
I see no need to continue to discuss/argue some points with certain people who already have their minds made up about everything they post. Some are in the habit of always seeming to be negative about just about everything they get into. I have had it with them. "unquote"

George,

Couldn't agree with you more. Seems to be impossible to just have a give and take conversation in here without someone getting their bloomers in a wad.

[george wilson]

Bloomers ! I like that !

[Rob Woodman]

I started my apprenticeship at 16, it was a three and a half year course.
Part college work both theory and practical lessons and part on site or in the workshop for the company I was apprenticed to.
My apprenticeship was for me to be a carpenter and joiner. Which is an oft confused title.
It covered such subjects as handtool use techniques and sharpening, machining practices and cutter geometry, construction design and practices, formwork, roofing, cabinetry and remedial works.
All aspects of joinery and house building really.
I worked with several old timers for different projects and with a bunch of very capable guys in the workshop and machine shop.

In short, my apprenticeship has made it possible for me to undertake anything a job throws at me, it gave me the groundwork info, the skills(hand and machinery) and the capacity to think a job through.

That is, I believe, the true worth of an apprenticeship. To dumb the training down or foreshorten the learning period is to the detriment of the skills base and the trainee and to society as a whole.

Sadly this is what has been happening in the UK for a number of years.

Rob.

[Marv Werner]

You totally misunderstand that I'm not arguing, I'm merely presenting a different point of view. I'm not directing my criticism directly at you when I criticize some of the methods used regarding apprenticeships. We all know you didn't design the process.

Our discussions in here and in other similar forums could be more productive and instructive if we all would put forth a little more effort to understand that nearly everyone relates to a different set of circumstances and experiences. No one person is entitled to having the last word on everything. Try to glean the positive and useful information and comments from a post that has been thoughtfully written instead of only zeroing in on a couple negative things that we think is perhaps on a personal level.