Administrative WARNING about Rant Threads

[Keith Outten]

Over the last nine years I have developed a good idea of what the majority here feel is best for our Community. I receive plenty of feedback via our Private Messaging system that reinforces decisions I make most of the time. I also know that there will always be a small number of people who will disagree with decisions made here but as I have said many times before it is the majority we try to keep happy, never the minority.

Clearly we are protective of our advertisers, if I told you anything else you would immediately know that I was bending the truth. We must be sensitive to concerns that advertisers have here, if we aren't they will leave and this Community will cease to exist. There you have it, this way you don't have to speculate concerning how we feel about advertisers and every one of you who prefers free access knows that this is the way it has to be.

This is where I remind everyone that we used to be a self supported Community without any advertising. It was the majority here that wanted us to convert to the current format.

From my vantage point any Rant that involves a woodworking machine manufacturer is rarely worth reading. The real jewel here is in our threads about woodworking, this is the reason woodworkers gather here. So, we will continue to support woodworking topics as our one and only mission. I realize that when someone is having a problem with a machine or vendor they often feel the need to seek help from others or possibly advice from someone who has had a similar experience. Morale support rarely helps anyone acquire corrective or preventative action, the better tact is to contact the company involved and work with them to solve the problem directly. The secondary problem I have with Rants involves the reputation this Community would earn if we allow runaway rants to steer us away from woodworking and the impact it would have on our ability to connect woodworkers to the companies that build our machines.

I will also admit that I will remove any thread or delete any post when I think it is in the best interests of a Member here, specifically any post that might put someone at risk of a legal challenge. I would rather be accused of censoring than see someone here sitting in a courtroom who may lose their home or life savings because they made a statement they could not prove to be factual. Even though our forums are not at risk of a legal challenge I really don't ever want to see anyone here suffer or go bankrupt trying to defend themselves against a company that can afford the very best legal staff. If you think this hasn't happened here you're wrong, so far my track record as a peace maker is perfect, if I ever fail the word will spread real quick.
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[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

Sometime in the recent past...I believe earlier this spring a member here who is a lawyer replied to one of these threads. In it he quoted a recent court decision which basically stated that if a website was moderated, the owner and staff could be held responsible for the material posted there. This member quoted the lawsuit and court where the decision was rendered. I wish I could find the thread so I could quote the information.

[Bill Trouard]

like I said, Its a fine line you have to walk a few times in my post.
what use to bother me more than a rant thread was menbers sharing pdf manuals, instructions or anything other than their own informantion through the pm system. that will put you directly on the hook for providing a file shareing service. I see lots of post for that here, most of the time members do it corectly by providing a link to the manufactures site. other times you see, PM me and I'll send it. I have seen site owners get into lots of legal issues with that. If you operate a website with public post, the possible legal issues just never end. That is one of the main reasons I sold my last forum. the latest case law around tradmarked names like grizzly, Rikon or whoever owns the name requires the ®​ and ™ be after each name. I now do this with word replacments kind of like you do to replace curse words. for the name Rikon to appear legaly it would hav to be Rikon®​ or Rikon™.
Though most legal issues can be taken care of with a good solid set of rules and TOS and when ever its updated force all users agree to it upon entry to the homepage.

I did not mean to offend the Admin or Moderators here, It seems that I have though. Maybe my post should also be deleted since this type of threads is best left for private viewing.


Have a good night guys.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill......you certainly haven't offended me.

You can certainly disagree with Moderators or Administrators here as long as it's civil.

[Keith Outten]

Bill,

No offense taken and thanks for your contribution to this thread.

It is my understanding that forum owners are carriers similar to the phone company in that they are not responsible for content that is provided by a Member. We must remove any illegal public content when we are made aware of a problem by a proper authority.

Our Terms of Service (TOS) clearly state the intent of our service and provide the necessary instructions that all members of this Community agree to when they register.

Moderators are not subject to any legal challenge based on their duties here, they are not employees and they are not paid for their service hence they are not allowed to make or enforce any policy that would constitute a legal responsibility on their part.
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[Peter Scoma]

I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.

[Keith Outten]

I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.

Peter,

Don't Rant!
You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here. The reason for this requirement is that it is the courteous thing to do and it follows this Communities standing order of being a friendly environment. Everyone here is expected to be friendly and courteous all the time, to be less than that in regards to a commercial vendor is the same as being disrespectful towards a member of this Community.

People need to also think about their expectations for creating a new thread, if their goal is to harm anyone in any way that just doesn't fit who we are and what this Community is about. These are not rules created by Administrators here it is what the majority of this Community prefers. Finally we are definitely not like any other woodworking forum, I admit that right up front and it is by design. I really dislike being compared to other online communities and to hear someone challenge the way we function based on a situation that might be tolerated elsewhere. If you spend five minutes here reading in any of our forums you should get the idea that something is different about this place.

I don't mean to pick on you directly Peter I am just trying to answer your question so don't take my response personally.
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[Larry Edgerton]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

The lawyers win again.......

Larry

[Bill Trouard]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

The lawyers win again.......

Larry

I agree with that statement Larry.

Keith when you say post like the grizzly thread are completely removed from the public view to protect the company the member and forum’s reputation. I just do not understand the majority wanting this type of censorship. Maybe that explains why this forum has so many new tool gloats and very few this new tool stinks threads.
Its actions like that that can hurt a forum or any other company that someone puts trust in for neutral reviews. The BBB even got a big public black-eye by how it was selling its ratings. 20/20 aired a show showing exactly that. now if you knew that you could buy an A+ rating from the BBB would you still trust them when trying to evaluate a company you may be looking to hire? How is this any different than what the BBB is doing? they remove consumer complaints for their paying accredited members or in the case here sponsors. The ability to complain about a company’s service or product in a public place or place product reviews without fear that they will be deleted because the company or someone disagrees with that review. This is what keeps companies doing the right thing and fixing issues. where would we be if all companies could sweep all issues under the rug from the public view with a few advertising dollars.

I know I would have liked to know that the BBB was doing that. it would have saved me $6k that a contractor ripped me off for that had an A+ rating and no government actions in their report. After the fact found out the opposite, the city had issued summons to the contractor for hiring unlicensed sub-contractors and had a few lawsuits filed in other counties. Even when I filed a complaint with them against the contractor, still no complaints show when you look up that company still has an A+ and no government actions taken against the company even though I provided the public records, the only thing it takes to get a positive listing is a valid credit card.


That is why I suggested that deleting full threads is not always best. if a thread starts to become a rant you weed the abusive post and notify the member why. but do not kill the legitimate post in that thread. becase when you loose the public trust because they are seeing these threads get deleted you loose members, and when you loose members then the advertisers do not care, they will take their $$ and move on

I personally rely on forms and reviews of products by consumers a lot more than shows or magazines that depend on advertisers for their income. Its these forums and review sites that keep companies in check. if these forums did not exist these companies would not be so willing to fix issues if they were not worried about this type of thread.

At the end of the thread its up to you on how you deal with these issues, just like every other business with the choices they make, they have to accept how those choices reflect on that business.

[Myk Rian]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews.

Do you mean reviews by we, the users and members of these forums, reviews in printed media, or on tool based websites?
The first, I would have a tendency to believe. The other two, I hardly ever believe, totally.

[Dan Hintz]

Don't Rant!
You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here.

This raises an interesting conundrum, one which I have struggled to find a meaningful halfway to...

If a person is required to resolve any conflict with the company first before posting here, there's no point in posting here at all to ask for help/suggestions... it either gets resolved or it doesn't, but the forum is not allowed to hear about it until it's over. On the other hand, once that person reaches a point where the conflict is obviously not going to be resolved to their satisfaction, they also can't post because anything they say may disparage the company's products and/or service. It's a no-win situation.

Should they post in a coherent, thoughtful manner about their issues with the company, the first thing everyone wants to know are the details behind what happened. Without those details, we cannot make up our own minds as to who was at fault (and both parties may be). So the details are asked for, and if they are supplied, we're back over the line again... thread gets removed from public consumption (one thing I have never agreed with, locking would be better, IMO).

Catch-22...

[Keith Outten]

Larry, I doubt that the lawyers will win anything in this case because the issue is about how this Community feels things should be done. We are simply extending our Community philosophy of being a friendly place to the companies we purchase tools and equipment from. If this solves a few legal issues for us that is certainly a major benefit as well. In a nutshell we don't want SawMill Creek to be used as a courtroom that tries and convicts anyone (person or business), particulalrly when they are not present to defend their position.

Dan, you have misinterpreted what I said in my last post.
Please read it again.
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[Harold Burrell]

Just my $.02...

I , for one, appreciate the balance here. It is indeed a valuable resource of information. It is also a place where we can share our likes and even our exuberance over our experiences/purchases from and with tool makers and sellers.

That info (IMHO) is oh so very appreciated.

I know the issue being discussed here is a delicate one. But I think that the administration here handles it well. I personally tire of reading threads of folks bashing companies or even using the forum as a "means to an end" for getting the business' attention.

Do we (as individual consumers) have bad experiences? Sure. But there is a way for us to voice our concerns in an appropriate manner.

It's kind of like this...I can disagree with my wife. Hey, it happens (more often than I care to mention here). I am learning (after 31 years of marriage) that the way I choose to handle that disagreement can either resolve or exacerbate the issue. We can discuss it rationally...or I can "freak out" on her.

Speaking of which...

Have you ever been to someone's house and heard a couple get into a heated "disagreement"? I have. It's awkward.

Well, it can get like that around here sometimes. Except we get to here only one side of the complaints.

I think the mods do a good job keeping that in check.

(Enough of my ramblings...)

[Carl Beckett]

I will chime in here, to say that I appreciate the balance that the moderators/admins are able to maintain on this forum. I find it to be one of the more friendly and useful sites on the internet (at least for the ones I have used).

I have seen and tried to use sites that are very open and loosely moderated (or self moderated). These almost inevitably end up being taken over by a vocal minority, which most times renders the site useless.

There has to be a balance. The chances of everyone agreeing to what the details of the balance looks like - is zero. Im a big believer that someone has to step up and make these decisions, and I am comfortable that the current moderators/admins make thoughtful and considerate judgment on where to draw the line.

I also appreciate that it takes time and effort on their part to make this site what it is - a very valuable and useful forum for sharing of information on a common theme. I have certainly made decisions based on 'poor reviews' of a product by others here. I have also seen people become upset over things that I would not at all consider to warrant the level of passion shown. From what I have seen, its all about HOW the feelings are expressed and shared. I have yet to see a topic where legitimate opinions, expressed in a mature and 'fair' way, were moderated off. Is it 'perfect'? - there is no perfect.

So my rant: I want to express my thanks to the moderators and administration of this site. It continues to be a valuable forum of information (for me). As far as I am concerned, you are doing a great job in balancing the tone of the site and ensuring it stays a positive and fair environment.

[Mike Goetzke]

Keith - Maybe there should be another survey about corporate sponsorship versus an annual fee. I for one would be willing to pay to speak/read freely. Another option may be to have a forum section for ranting - some other forums have this (maybe charge an additional fee for this section).


Mike