engineer/designer vs builder/laborer

[Moses Yoder]

An engineer in your field (structural) will be able to tell you if a 1/2" bolt made from stainless steel with 8% chromium will hold up a 500 pound cabinet without collapsing when a 300 pound person sits on the top. An engineer (materials) will be able to tell you the tensile strength of a blind rabbit joint made from Ipe using Titebond III so you can hang a 50 pound planter from it without dropping it on someone's head. An engineer (mechanical) will be able to design a new joint style to solve a particularly vexing problem you've had with a standard joint in a non-standard application. A chemical engineer will tell you what to coat the wood with to keep out pests and remain handprint free over 20 years.

While it would be kind of handy to have someone around who can answer these questions, my guess is they would have reference materials at their desk to look up the answers. Nowadays of course I would just google them and find the answers.

My wife's uncle is a manufacturing engineer, and he really has problems justifying his salary. I don't think he's ever worked a job for more than 5 years.

[John Coloccia]

While it would be kind of handy to have someone around who can answer these questions, my guess is they would have reference materials at their desk to look up the answers. Nowadays of course I would just google them and find the answers.

My wife's uncle is a manufacturing engineer, and he really has problems justifying his salary. I don't think he's ever worked a job for more than 5 years.

Part of the communication problem between engineers and other disciplines is not just that engineers don't necessarily understand them but also and just as prevalently (if not more so) that other disciplines don't understand engineering.

[Moses Yoder]

Of what value is a discipline that can't be communicated? How would it add value to the product if it can't be communicated? I can communicate with designers just fine, and understand what they want to do. They add value to the product by making it look nice and serve it's purpose. I communicate with a cabinetmaker just fine, and he adds value to the product through direct labor. Of what use is an engineer if I can't communicate with him?

[John Coloccia]

Of what value is a discipline that can't be communicated? How would it add value to the product if it can't be communicated? I can communicate with designers just fine, and understand what they want to do. They add value to the product by making it look nice and serve it's purpose. I communicate with a cabinetmaker just fine, and he adds value to the product through direct labor. Of what use is an engineer if I can't communicate with him?

I didn't say you can't communicate with him. I said that part of the problem is that you have no clue what he does, just as much as he may not understand exactly what you do. This is evidenced by the fact that you think you open a book and just "look up" or google for answers. You might find Young's Modulus in a reference book but you will not find an FEA model for a particular structure.

But you've made up your mind that engineers (or eggheads, as some prefer) are just useless. I'll assume your answer will be typed on a computer you designed and built yourself, or it will be a hand delivered block of wood you've chiseled your response into, after smelting some metal and pounding it into a chisel.

Sheesh.

[Moses Yoder]

But you've made up your mind that engineers (or eggheads, as some prefer) are just useless.

Some engineers are very usefull. I am not sure at what point anything I said can be interpreted to mean that engineers are useless. All except one of the college trained engineers I have met are useless, but those represent less than a hundred people, and none of them were trained at Purdue or MIT, they were all trained at smaller colleges. The engineers who worked on the Dodge Neon would have been better off scrubbing toilets and putting the janitors to work on that car. Then of course there is the off chance my car was just a lemon. The leaning Tower of Pisa probably could have benefited from a good foundation engineer. I think probably the engineers working for Lamborghini probably know their stuff. It wouldn't have cost that much more to make a really reliable car and put the Dodge Neon name on it, but every penny counts when you're shoveling money into executive pockets.

[John Coloccia]

Some engineers are very usefull. I am not sure at what point anything I said can be interpreted to mean that engineers are useless. All except one of the college trained engineers I have met are useless, but those represent less than a hundred people, and none of them were trained at Purdue or MIT, they were all trained at smaller colleges. The engineers who worked on the Dodge Neon would have been better off scrubbing toilets and putting the janitors to work on that car. Then of course there is the off chance my car was just a lemon. The leaning Tower of Pisa probably could have benefited from a good foundation engineer. I think probably the engineers working for Lamborghini probably know their stuff. It wouldn't have cost that much more to make a really reliable car and put the Dodge Neon name on it, but every penny counts when you're shoveling money into executive pockets.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, but dang that's funny. Welcome to the creek.

[Dan Hintz]

It wouldn't have cost that much more to make a really reliable car and put the Dodge Neon name on it, but every penny counts when you're shoveling money into executive pockets.

Proof positive you have no idea what an engineer does or the trade-offs he's forced to make to get a product to your doorstep... and bean counters are only a part of the battle. You get a lemon of a car and think the engineers behind it were the ones screwing up... what a wonderful world you must live in to have such thick blinders on.

I'm done with this thread as it has become too troll-like. If I visit it any more I'll be forced to say something that will get me kicked off of the board. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

[Bob Turkovich]

Proof positive you have no idea what an engineer does or the trade-offs he's forced to make to get a product to your doorstep... and bean counters are only a part of the battle. You get a lemon of a car and think the engineers behind it were the ones screwing up... what a wonderful world you must live in to have such thick blinders on.

I'm done with this thread as it has become too troll-like. If I visit it any more I'll be forced to say something that will get me kicked off of the board. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

Trust me, Dan.

I've really had a hard time staying quiet on this thread...

[Montgomery Scott]

Proof positive you have no idea what an engineer does or the trade-offs he's forced to make to get a product to your doorstep... and bean counters are only a part of the battle. You get a lemon of a car and think the engineers behind it were the ones screwing up... what a wonderful world you must live in to have such thick blinders on.

I'm done with this thread as it has become too troll-like. If I visit it any more I'll be forced to say something that will get me kicked off of the board. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

All too true. If it takes 12 years to become an "engineer" then it is one in title only. Most people in manufacturing have no clue as to the complexity of the task of an engineer. Designing and analyzing structure to withstand static and fatigue stresses from up to 12,000 load casees, failure modes, damage tolerant, high and low temps for 20+ years of life all to have the lowest weight and lowest cost and to be integrated with electrical, hydraulic and structural systems from other groups all with their own criteria.

I've been a stress analyst on the 737, 757, 767, 777, 787 and F-35 programs and there is never an end to making a better design with more advanced tools, technology and materials. That is what real engineering requires.

[Matt Meiser]

I've been a stress analyst on the 737, 757, 767, 777, 787 and F-35 programs and there is never an end to making a better design with more advanced tools, technology and materials. That is what real engineering requires.

If your Google skills were better you could have saved yourself a lot of time for cleaning bathrooms.

What I want to know is, if a lemon Neon lasts 8 years, how long does a good one last?

Well, off to clean the bathrooms. Or maybe implement a solution to make an American manufacturing company more efficient and do my small part to keep production and jobs here. Not sure which would be a better use of my engineering degree?

[Bob Turkovich]

The engineers who worked on the Dodge Neon would have been better off scrubbing toilets and putting the janitors to work on that car.

36 1/2 years as an engineer at Chrysler down the drain.....

[David Epperson]

My wife's uncle is a manufacturing engineer, and he really has problems justifying his salary. I don't think he's ever worked a job for more than 5 years.

Regardless of salary - there's just not a lot of job security in the field. I used to be in it myself. With about the same employment history. I can make the same $$ working as a blue collar industrial maintenance mechanic, with a lot less headache, and a lot more security that I'll have a job tomorrow. Plus, the overtime pays time and a half - unlike the salary position.

[Ben Hatcher]

You probably can look things up just as well as an engineer might. You may even know how to apply it properly to your situation. There’s no engineer gene. Lots of people from many walks of life are capable of learning how to be an engineer. There used to be apprenticeship programs whereby smart and capable people could become an engineer without taking the traditional college route. I think that it is too bad that those don't seem to be very common these days, especially given how expensive 4-year degrees have become.




I often think that an engineering degree is like a high end tool. The job can often be done with a cheaper tool. The operator may insist that the cheaper tool is perfectly fine. He may be right, but unless he’s tried the high end version, he’ll never know for sure.

[Ben Hatcher]

While it would be kind of handy to have someone around who can answer these questions, my guess is they would have reference materials at their desk to look up the answers. Nowadays of course I would just google them and find the answers.

My wife's uncle is a manufacturing engineer, and he really has problems justifying his salary. I don't think he's ever worked a job for more than 5 years.

You probably can look things up just as well as an engineer might. You may even know how to apply it properly to your situation. There’s no engineer gene. Lots of people from many walks of life are capable of learning how to be an engineer or do engineering type work. There used to be apprenticeship programs whereby smart and capable people could become an engineer without taking the traditional college route. I think that it is too bad that those don't seem to be very common these days, especially given how expensive 4-year degrees have become.

I often think that an engineering degree is like a high end tool. The job can often be done with a cheaper tool. The operator may insist that the cheaper tool is perfectly fine. He may be right, but unless he’s tried the high end version, he’ll never know for sure.