Old Tools vs New Tools -Which way do you go?

[Keith Avery]

I started basic woodworking(strictly a hobby) about ten years ago and bought mostly Jet stuff. In the last couple of years I have bought some older used equipment and enjoyed getting it up to speed and using it. I was looking for opinions about which you prefer and why. It seems to me some older tools are clearly better while certain newer tools are technological leaps forward.

These are the old tools that I think are better than new ones.

Planers- Older Powematics, Deltas, Olivers seem to me to be better than the typical Taiwan/China machine today
Bandsaws- Tannewitz and Moaks
Air Compressors- Quincy's, Curtis, Saylor Beale

Items I an not sure about

Jointers- Old Olivers and Northfields are great but they still cost an arm and a leg. Think maybe a newer Grizzly may work just as well and cost far less
Tablesaws- No idea but the newest saws with riving knives or a sawstop seem like a huge safety leap
Drill Presses- hmmm

Newer is better

Lathes- I am not a turner but seems like the newer machines are well liked
Router/Router tables- the newer lifts seems hard to beat
Dust Collectors- You can argue Oneida vs. Grizzly vs. ClearVue all day, but they are all clearly better than anything from 20+ years ago

I am interested in everyones opinions as I am looking at upgrading many machines in the next few years and would love some help on where to focus my search.

[Van Huskey]

A topic that comes up regularly usually within a thread.

Dollar for dollar IF you are a savy buyer and or tinkerer it is hard not to get a better machine used than new. Then again that is pretty much true with ANYTHING. The exceptions in woodworking machines may be in safety. Those exceptions may be limited to dust collection (because we understand the danger better) and table saws (riving knives, sliders and SS tech).

IF however you look at it a different way inflating the price of say an old PM planer to todays dollars I would suggest in most cases you can buy a better machine, certainly more accurate and precise. Just look at the offerings from Felder, Martin and the like. The money is huge in some cases but not out of line with the inflated price of PM, Oliver, Porter etc etc.

To your specific question, in handheld tools I suggest buying "modern" ones. Though they may not be built as well as the old stuff they are much more user friendly and useful in most cases, if you appreciate quality then look at Festool, it is almost impossible to go wrong with their tools. For dust collection modern is indeed the way to go IMHO. With the table saw it becomes a personal issue regarding safety, to individual to approach. With jointers and planers I "require" a Byrd (or similar) head (another area modern is better IMO) and it is VERY costly to retrofit onto some of the old machines, especially the direct drive ones. For the rest of the machines older machines dollar for dollar usually are a better buy for the hobby shop. However, I do prefer modern Italian bandsaws for several reasons. Although not a turner the old lathes get overlooked often due to the modern desire for turning large bowls, the old lathes are solid but few have the turning capacity of the modern ones, though some can be modified like Mike Cruz's PM.

In the end used will beat new dollar for dollar but it requires more shopping, more knowledge and more risk. New in some cases gives a more user friendly interface and has more features that hobby woodworkers appreciate.

My approach is have a list of all the machines you want long term, keep some cash aside and shop Craig's List et al constantly, pick up either old mahines or new ones that are a good bargain as you go and if you come to the point where you have to have a machine very quickly you haven't been able to pick up, bite the bullet and pay the new price.

[Rod Sheridan]

Old machinery isn't better than new machinery in performance if you compare apples to apples.

I owned a shop full of General equipment, now replaced by two Euro combination machines.

The Euro machines cost the same or less than the General, and does far more, and is more accurate.

Now if you compare an old Northfield/Wadkin etc to a new Grizzly, sure the old stuff is better, however you need to look at who Northfield/Wadkin sold to in the old days.

That stuff was industrial machinery, on par in cost with Martin SCMI, Felder etc, yet no where near as refined or developed as the new machines in the same class.

That said, if you buy an old Wadkin machine you can have a bargain if you're the right sort of person.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

The benefit of used is that you don't have to settle for lower end. New Northfield and original Oliver 24" planers go for 30K and used from $4-8K. In the day Newman whitney, Buss, Oliver were top of the heap. Oliver more of a finish planer than a rough lumber machine. PM were great mid level machines that are comparable with 20K planers. Tanny were found in every factory needing machines that could run 24-7. Moak were middle grade for those who didn't pop for Oliver, Tanny, or Yates bandsaws. The old Porter 300CM was the best all around jointer for adjustability and the Oliver 12 was in a class by itself. Newman made great jointers and planers with some of the heaviest castings. Everything Greenlee made was heavy.

I would, and have bought new and used planers and jointers. Jointers in particular are worth the price they still command. There is reason for that. The tables had seasoned cast iron ground or planed flat. Porter planed their tables in both directions so boards slid on the tables like you are playing air hockey. Huge ABEC 7 bearings turned 5" ( 4 1/4 in Northfield's case) cutterheads and the tables were infinitely adjustable. On the Porter even the cutterhead could be adjusted. Euro stuff is today's equivalent, Martin being the top of the food chain. Whether you go Euro or old US it is all about condition, and buying what has proven to be high quality. There was plenty of crap made in the good old days. Fortunately most of it hasn't survived. Dave

[Van Huskey]

There was plenty of crap made in the good old days. Fortunately most of it hasn't survived. Dave

So very true.

[curtis rosche]

lathes are better older unless you want to shell out a chuck of cash. the old lathes are heavier and better in my opinion. not all, but the olivers and other pattern lathes.

[Mort Stevens]

Looks like I'm in the minority here, but for me it's got to be new. When I started setting up shop, I asked myself do I want to repair/work on machines or work with wood? For me it was a clear choice, I'd rather work with wood.

[Cary Falk]

I have a mix of both old and new. For me function is first. I am not one to save a 100 year old table saw because it is old if it doesn't do what I need it to do. I am not knocking anybody that want to restore for the sake of restoring. It is just not my thing. Condition, cost, eright/size, and availabilty are huge factors in any tool decision. Availabilty of used tools in my area is poor. When something does come up it is priced close to new. Here is a list of what I have and my decisions

Table saw - Used to have a 1970 UNI. I sold it for a modern table saw with riving and better dust collection and better guards. I see no benefit of buying a old table saw

Shaper - I see no need to buy used. I don't think shapers have changed over the years. Old shapers never come up in my neck of the woods.

Radial Arm Saws. - I definitely think used is the way to go. I have a DeWalt GWI. You can get good neew ones but they are really expensive. I also love the way they look.

Scroll saws. I have an old Delta 40-440. I think there are some good new ones out there. The Dewalt gets good ratings in the mid range. RBI, etc are good in teh higher range. My Delta was cheap compared to either of them. I also love the way they look.

Spindle sanders - Old Max or State would be great build wise but I never see them come up used. When they do they are missing all of the spindles and people want too much money for them. I am happy with my grizzly.

Edge sanders - I am not sure if they made old ones the oscillate. I don't need a 2000# monster. I am happy with my Jet oscillating.

Drill presses - I think you get more bang for you buck in old. I lust after a PM 1150 VS. Lot of new ones have runout problems and short quill travel. You have to pay big money to get a decent VS model. Lack of table cranks on a lot of older ones prevent me from going old school. My 17" Steel City with 6" qull travle and table crank has seerved me well.

Lathes - I have not seen any advantage to go old school. I think the larger swing, larger motors, and infinite variable speed, etc of newer lathes are very attractive. I am happy with my Jet 1632.

Jointers - If you want something larger then 8" with straight knives then used is the way to go cost wise. Clam shell heads, babbit bearings, etc of older jointers gives me a headache. I think retrofitting spiral heads in these would be a nightmare. I am happy with my new 8" spiral head jointer.

Planers - Similar thoughts as the jointers. If you want big then old used is probably the way to go. Retro fitted spiral heads are costly. I love my new 15" spiral head.

Drum/wide belt sanders - I don't know of anything old in this category. I don't need a monster. My 18/36 works nicely in my garage.

Dust collectors - new is the way to go. Advances in new submicron filters are a plus.

Band saws - I am in favor of the new steel frame saws. Old CI saws with no blade guards and no dust collection makes me cringe.

Just my opinion

[Paul Incognito]

All of the tools in my shop were bought used, the oldest being a 1924 Oliver planer.
I check craigslist every day, and patience has gotten me a pretty nice shop for a fraction of what new machinery would have cost.
Yes, in going used I do lose some of the inovations and safety features of the new machines, but It's a trade off I can deal with.
One caveat to the old industrial machines is that mostly they're 3 phase.
My 2 cents,
Paul

[Stephen Cherry]

For me used, whether old or new, is the way to go. I just reactivated one of my old Delta HD shapers- bought two for 300 dollars, one was good to go, the other needed a spindle rebuild (70 dollars-- Thanks Richard). THis machine may be 40 or 50 years old, and it works great for 3/4 inch spindle work. My old delta lathe also is great for my limited turning needs. Just a few legs, no bowls. At the other age extreme, my table saw is a 2006 felder, and it does everything without breaking a sweat.

For me, it all boils down to value. Sometimes this best from an old machine, sometimes newer is better.

[HANK METZ]

I think it important to note that not since our first great depression has the available dollar bought so much for so little, and in the used market especially. Old iron is now sold by the pound instead of it's reputation; by that I mean it's very easy to acquire a quality machine at far below what it's relative value is. This will all end, to be sure, once the economy gets going again, but for now I can buy high quality for next to no money because some guy needs to feed his family or pay the rent- it's not dog eat dog, just life and the available choices we must make.

- Beachside Hank

[Will Winder]

When I look at tools its all about value, this is just a hobby for me so since they wont be generating any income I want to get the most out of my money. That usually means I end up going used and when comparing used machines the quality old ones always seem to catch my attention.

My first old machine was a plug and play jointer from the 50's. I bought because it is bigger, heavier and more powerful than any of the modern entry level machines, it was also 1/3 their price. That got me hooked mainly from the value perspective. Since then I came to enjoy tinkering as well and bought some machines that needed a lot of help, those ended up coming closer to the price of a modern equivalent but are probably still much heavier.

My Duro lathe is from the 40's and is probably the most used tool in my shop, it was plug and play and I plan to retrofit a variable speed treadmill motor into it one of these days. Until then it came with a jack shaft with a range from 325 - 9000 RPM.

I restored a 14" delta bandsaw from the 50's and after adding a shop made fence it cuts blanks, resaws, cuts joints, anything I throw at it.

Last week I bought a Craftsman bench top drill press from the 40's which just needs a new belt. It was in the same price range as the harbor freight bench top it is replacing except it weights (at least) twice as much, has a more powerful motor, has twice the swing and twice the travel.

[David Kumm]

Hank is correct about used pricing now. Never been cheaper. As far as time spent fixing new vs used, I've found that after the initail set up I spend less time fixing the old stuff than lower end new. The old machines are so well built that only the start stop contacts wear out. Reading all the threads here about machine set up problems I feel lucky with my used. Cary is correct that you want to avoid clamshell heads and probably babbit bearings but they went out in the 1920s so are pretty rare. Should not discourage you from a used jointer just like a Hupmobile shouldn't discourage you from a used car. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Lots of good info here already, as you can start to see it boils down to a personal choice more than right or wrong. I started out with smaller home shop type machinery and gradually replaced with bigger and better. I've bought a handful of machines new....a Craftsman RAS was my first tool purchase when I got out of high school....still have it in the shop today. I later bought a Ryobi table saw, Powermatic dual drum sander, Powermatic line boring machine, Bridgewood 20" planer, and finally a Powermatic 27 shaper....they all worked, but they're also all gone. Replaced by larger heavier duty machines that are in a different class.

The problems as has been mentioned already I think, is guys trying to compare Olivers and Tanny's to Grizzly and Jet, obviously there's no real comparison. You have to compare within a machines class. A well tuned Grizzly jointer will straighten an edge just as well as a well tuned Oliver. The differences, which are hard to appreciate until you've used both, are definitely there though. I replaced my brand new at the time 20" Bridgewood planer with the fancy insert head, with a a 30+ year old 20" SCM planer with straight knives. Many guys might not appreciate why someone would want to make the switch as it may seem like nothing gained, or even a loss! On the contrary, the heavier machine works better in every way....for my purposes. I do however use my machines to make a living and when you use your equipment daily, you can really start to appreciate the differences.

Now these discussions are usually only geared towards classical machinery. Which makes sense as that is what most home shop guys buy and use. However if your making a living with machinery there's a whole lot of stuff out there that doesn't fall under the classical machinery list. For instance, edgebanders, panels saws, and CNC machines to name a few. These are machines where very generally speaking, newer is better.

Router tables are essentially a poor man's shaper and I still don't really understand the concept of spending close to what a small shaper cost to buy a router table? I'm still using the same shop made I built over 10 years ago and it works as well as one could want.

Haven't honestly spent any real time on the lathe so I'll leave that for the others....though I like the idea of an old Wadkin or Oliver.

Dust collectors....I have to disagree with you, there's not a lot of difference between a single stage collector made 20 years ago as one made today. If your specifically looking at cyclones, there's still no difference in how they're made, the difference is that a lot of companies are making smaller versions. For a bigger shop I'd never consider buying a new dust collector, I paid a fraction of the price for my Torit cyclone. For a smaller shop there's less opportunity as the market is still so new there's just not a lot of used small cyclones out there. But that's a different argument than newer is better A 20 year old Torit, Belfab, and probably several other names are better than any new Grizzly, or other similar Asian offering. Dust collection has been around for a much longer time than you may realize....it's just a relatively new concept in the home shop!

good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Peterson]

Everything I've read in this thread is pretty accurate. It really comes down to a couple points.

1. Time - If a used tool is available in your area, do you have or want to spend the time to bring the tool up to a operational state?

2. Money - I have a feeling that if money were no object many of us would have plenty of euro gear in our shops.

I have an old Delta 6" jointer that is in really good shape. I certainly would like a larger/longer jointer bed, but the cost of this tool was just too good to pass up.

I have a fair assortment of old Stanley hand planes that do not see heavy use, but do get used fairly often. My prized possession is a Stanley 60 1/2. Between my Stanley and my 4" combination square, I'm set. Everything else is icing on the cake!