SawStop vs Non SS Table saws poll....Accidents and accidental firings

[mreza Salav]

I have had a kickback on a SawStop with a properly installed riving knife. It was caused by the outfeed table being slightly too high, and when pushing the wood it hit the edge of the outfeed table, and rotated into the back of the blade - kickback. Left quite a welt on my abdomen. Felt like I was kicked by a horse. Wondered if I ruptured my spleen (fortunately didn't)

I am still trying to imagine the picture how it actually got kicked back. was it the end of the piece (the one that you were pushing) that got tangled into the blade?

[Larry Edgerton]

I was injured by a SS when I was helping a friend get his in the garage. He set it on my foot. Was not sure if that figured in you're poll so didn't vote.

I think this poll is a communist plot!

You guys worry too much about cutting a finger off, its really not all that bad. I still get up in the morning, take a shower, brush my teeth, kiss my wife and off I go for another joyous day of woodworking. I get a chuckle out of the attitude that life is over.

And yes, as soon as someone comes up with a system other than SS, I will probably buy one. One that is not so expensive when it fires.

[Neil Brooks]

I think this poll is a communist plot!

I remember reading that ... Mao Tse-Tung is buried in one of those ....

Hm.

[Jerome Hanby]

I haven't been injured myself, but my wieners all have nicks...

[Gary Max]

I would rather have a hammer that never missed the nail---------ouch

[Van Huskey]

Why doesn't anyone complaining about the poll do their own? I think anyone who tries will find out of difficult it is, in the format given. A question like this needs to be done in a flow chart manner with far more than 10 possible answers. John, did what HE wanted to do, John knew it wasn't perfect but maybe HE can glean what he hoped for out of it. This reminds me of a "simple" poll I put up one time just trying to get an idea how many people made part or all of their living via woodworking, I ash it and use the word "pro" to signify those who made their living working with wood. It became a huge discussion about professionalism and I suppose some people got their feelings hurt when their idea of "pro" was being reduced to anyone that did their type of work, not just ones that rose to the level of craftmanship they felt they exibited. Reminds me of a statistic I heard just last night, though I am not saying it is fact, apparently when people are ask about positive attributes 90% of people respond they are above average in that regard... I digress.


I am a non-SS owner and have been injured. My only injuries thus far have been minor kickbacks, hopefully with a newer saw with a riving knife thsoe are now behind me, even though better technique at the time could have prevented the kickbacks or at least made sure they didn't hit me. The day may come when I regret not having a SS, just like I may rue the day I didn't buy a Mercedes that helps stop itself before it hits an object...

Finally, someone, anyone that has complained about the shortcomings of the poll, start one yourself seeking to answer the same basic question as John presented and see how it goes...

[John Coloccia]

I wonder the same thing, Van. All I really wanted to see was:

1) rough injury rate on non-SS saws
2) rough rate at which people are tripping the brake for whatever reason
3) whether anyone is actually injuring themselves on the SS

And so far, according to those polled the basic answers are

1) somewhere shy of 20%

2) about half...maybe it's 30%....maybe it's 70%. What's it's NOT is 100% or 10%, i.e. it's not everyone but lots of us trip the brake, and a significant number do it accidentally. That's more than I thought it would be.

3) about half the people that COULD injure themselves are saved by the brake. Frankly, I'm surprised that so many have injured themselves. Maybe it's not half....maybe it's 30% or 70%. What it's not is 0%, which is about where I expected it to be. It seems to be significantly higher.

The mistake everyone makes is assuming that I'm trying to make a rate comparison between SS and non-SS saws. I'm not. I have no interest in any of these companies, what anyone happens to use in their own shop, nor what anyone happens to think about what's in my own shop. As callous as it sounds, I really just don't care. I have my own shop to worry about. I just wanted to get a rough idea of what's going on out there because it seems to come up a lot. Now I can say, "Yeah, lots of us do trip the brake by accident", and "Don't be complacent because the injury rate is still SIGNIFICANT on this saw". I don't know what the rate is, but even with this small, completely unscientific sample, there's a definite and significant signal there that you can't ignore.

[johnny means]

Thought I'd qualify my vote as SS owner with 2 accidental firings. Both were operator error, me and an employee. Both were a miter gauge contact.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

This reminds me of a "simple" poll I put up one time just trying to get an idea how many people made part or all of their living via woodworking, I ash it and use the word "pro" to signify those who made their living working with wood. It became a huge discussion about professionalism and I suppose some people got their feelings hurt when their idea of "pro" was being reduced to anyone that did their type of work, not just ones that rose to the level of craftmanship they felt they exibited....

I think I remember that poll. It amazed me how many people rant on and did not even read the O.P. that clearly defined "pro". If they disagree with the definition of "pro" they should start another poll....

[Neil Brooks]

Awww.

I didn't get a chance to harangue Van about the "worthlessness" of HIS poll ??

I'm hurt

[ian maybury]

I don't want to get involved in controversy on this topic either, or get diverted into arcane arguments about whether or not terminology means one thing or another (practically speaking it means whatever the perceiver believes it means - there's no single right or wrong answer) - but I have been keeping an eye on the voting in the poll given the rumblings regarding the possibility of legislation to make compulsory this or a similar technology.

There are certainly problems in comparing Saw Stop users with non-Saw Stop users' numbers given the different ownership periods and and population sizes, but if the voting Saw Stop user group alone is reviewed we have 31 'never fired' versus 5 'injury preventions' versus 24 'accidental firings'.

As before I find those numbers pretty worrying for a technology that is being pushed as the basis for a possible national standard, in that 24 accidental firings seems one heck of a high number versus 5 injury preventions. It's also worrying that at least 40% (24/31+24+5) of the voting owners have experienced accidental firings.

Somebody said earlier that you can't consider cost (or something like that) when preventing injury. As a sentiment it has a certain politically correct appeal, but it's unfortunately and demonstrably untrue. First off it's impossible to eliminate all risk of injuries, but secondly our societies and economies would instantly grind to a halt if that same trade off wasn't made (and a practicable balance of risk vs. cost found) in businesses, agencies, private lives and more all over and every day.....

ian

[John Coloccia]

I don't want to get involved in controversy on this topic either, or get diverted into arcane arguments about whether or not terminology means one thing or another (practically speaking it means whatever the perceiver believes it means - there's no single right or wrong answer) - but I have been keeping an eye on the voting in the poll given the rumblings regarding the possibility of legislation to make compulsory this or a similar technology.

**snip**

Then don't. I'm going to do everything I can to keep bickering out of this thread because I would like to see this thread survive and see how things change as time goes on. I'd ask that if anyone has anything they'd like to discuss about the relative value of various technologies, start your own thread instead of derailing this one.

[Paul McGaha]

One thing that stands out to me is of the 228 (so far) non sawstop owners that have voted, 40 have had an injury on the table saw, about 17.5%, roughly 1 out of 6 users.

I dont have any information to compare that to but is a higher rate than I would have guessed.

PHM

[Carl Beckett]

Of course I will chime in with an opinion

I have a traditional saw, and a thumb that clicks every time I bend it. But I like that thumb and am happy they got it all back together to where it stayed on.

The next category of the poll might be:

"For those of you who have experienced and injury, does this make you more likely or less likely to consider safety for your next saw purchase". Safety could include SS technology, riving knife, overhead arm, etc etc.

Because for me the answer is YES, after experiencing an injury I am much more conscious of the safety features on the tablesaw. Being a machinist and lab tech for years, I was already pretty respectful but it bit me anyway. Accidents do happen. And as it turns out they happen to me. So if I can do something to improve my health and safety - even if its not a 100% guaranteed slam dunk prevention - I like to give it strong consideration.

Am thinking... .if we merged this thread with a thread about dust collection and which bandsaw to buy, we would get the mother of all threads.......

[Glen Blanchard]

<snip> Saw Stop user group alone is reviewed we have <snip> 24 'accidental firings'.

While this is true, I think it important to note that some (many?) of these were due to operator error (such as mine). There have been a number of firings for "unknown" reasons as well. The latter should indeed be a concern in regards to the technology employed, the former should not.