Costs for an "elite" education?

[Belinda Barfield]

John,

While it's true and I agree with you, it's not uncommon for doctors and dentists to several hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt before they begin to practice in their respective fields. Education isn't free and one has to live too.

One of the practices you see small communities near here use is an offer to pay off some doctor's student loans in return for them practicing within the community for a given number of years. In those cases, the small logging and farming communities win and so does the doctor.

This is a very common practice in the rural south. The drawback is that practicing medicine in a small community can have its challenges. In my experience most doctors that accept this offer complete their committment and move on.

Phil, a few things to share with your daughter that she may not know . . . docs don't just have to go to an office and see patients. Some cruise lines hire doctors. Disney hires doctors. Both situations are mostly ER work, but there are some perks that go along with the job.

[terry mccammon]

I suspect this is not going to be popular.

It is all about the kid. Both of my children went to elite schools, both knew what they wanted, understood that getting in was the start of the work, not the end. They worked like dogs academically, both graduated Phi Beta Kappa, both are employed (grad school for one on stipend and LT in the 82nd for the other). In both cases, a good percentage of the kids in their classes were resting on their laurels, having achieved admission to the top, they could and did never really work hard again. If your child is in that group, forget paying for it. If they get the message then do what you have to do to make it happen as they will be at the top of the tree for life.

We are absolutely middle of the middle class, in both cases my children's school made the package within our reach. My son decided that he would do the four year ROTC scholarship route as it removed the only parental control left. But His college forgives room and board for ROTC scholarship students so he was cash positive all four years. But it was not free education, he is paying for it.

We spent approximately $40K on my daughter over four years (full tuition did not cover room, board, books). It is paid, she worked at a good job for several years and is now in the top rated grad program in her field.

Our deal was you produce superior academic results, we pay the bill, you do otherwise, we pay no bills.

Your results may well vary.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This is a very common practice in the rural south. The drawback is that practicing medicine in a small community can have its challenges. In my experience most doctors that accept this offer complete their committment and move on.

Belinda...that is true but a lot of the small communities find it's the only way to get any doctor or nurse-practioner to practice in those areas. I have watched small rural towns struggle for years without a physician on staff....extremely small rural hospitals close because there is no doctor on staff. While those same hospitals don't need all of the expensive latest technology, they provide a great service when a trauma case happens whether it is a farming accident, logging accident or a car wreck occurs and they can shoot some x-rays, diagnose their condition and stabilize them until they can be airlifted to a trauma center with the necessary treatment available. Receiving some intitial accurate treatment in the golden hour saves a lot of lives.

[Belinda Barfield]

[QUOTE=Ken Fitzgerald;1917802]

This is a very common practice in the rural south. The drawback is that practicing medicine in a small community can have its challenges. In my experience most doctors that accept this offer complete their committment and move on.
QUOTE]

Belinda...that is true but a lot of the small communities find it's the only way to get any doctor or nurse-practioner to practice in those areas. I have watched small rural towns struggle for years without a physician on staff....extremely small rural hospitals close because there is no doctor on staff. While those same hospitals don't need all of the expensive latest technology, they provide a great service when a trauma case happens whether it is a farming accident, logging accident or a car wreck occurs and they can shoot some x-rays, diagnose their condition and stabilize them until they can be airlifted to a trauma center with the necessary treatment available. Receiving some intitial accurate treatment in the golden hour saves a lot of lives.

Agreed absolutely Ken. Having an ER physician in my parents small town saved my dad's life a number of years ago. Folks who aren't from a small southern town just need to be aware that the person who hasn't been to a doc in 20 years won't think twice about showing up on your doorstep on Sunday morning if he/she needs care. Nor will the mom with a coughing child hesitate to call your home number at 3 a.m. Docs in cities don't have to deal with this as much as they typically are in a call group and have an answering service. In a small town everyone knows your name, and where you live, and what you drive, and where you are at any given time.

[Robert McGowen]

In Texas, there is the Hazelwood Act. There is also have the Post 911 G.I. Bill. I am not sure if they have anything similar to the Hazelwood Act where you are. My son was in the Air Force for 18 months. They asked him if he wanted an early out, as they were overstaffed in the job that he was trained in. He opted out, but still qualified for all of the education benefits. He received a full ride, plus a $500 a month grant, for a Bachelor's degree at the University of Texas. He then used the Post 911 G.I. Bill and received a full ride, plus living expenses, for a private school Master's degree. Something to consider - he received his Master's a few months ago and is totally debt free.

I tried to throw my other 3 kids out at the Air Force recruiters, but they kept finding their way home.
I have one college senior and two college juniors in school right now, so I feel your pain about paying for school.

[Greg Portland]

I was also surprised that Harvard doesn't offer any merit scholarships, period. Are there any elite schools that do?

How much can you negotiate with the schools?

Any good reading on this subject? Advice?

Edit to add: Two things she has expressed an interest in include: (1) Becoming an M.D., (2) Serving in the military. But if she takes a ton of loans to go through medical school, would she be able to make enough income in the military to make payments on the school? How does that work?

The military will pay for you to go through medical school in exchange for the promise of serving a certain number of years (basically ROTC with a longer commitment).

Ivy Leagues don't offer merit based scholarships because it would be extremely difficult to differentiate between applicants. Rather, they work on a straightforward grant system (as you've seen from Harvard's page).

When I was looking @ schools, MIT was ~ $28k a year (tuition) and I was offered $20k in grants (my parent's were teachers... not poor but not rich). As you can see, it is possible to bring costs down to your local state school level. However, note that these dollar amounts are not locked in! Frankly, for a bachelor's degree any of the top 20-30 schools are going to give you a great education and give you the background required to get into a top graduate or medical school. Save the big $$$ for your PhD or MS.

[Greg Portland]

Is end of sophomore year too early to start talking to them about this? Too late?

No, you should begin right now. Most of the top scholarship programs (Westinghouse, Coca-Cola, Siemens, Nat. Merit Scholar, etc.) all begin with PSAT scores and later ACT/SAT scores (hopefully she's taken these tests already... taking the ACT/SAT multiple times is a good idea). Application periods for the top awards occur during the end of junior year or very early during senior year. Merit scholarships (NOT grants) at schools are typically applied for between Junior and Senior years in high school.

Start researching scholarships now... there are a lot of organizations that hand out $1k-$2k a year. Apply to as many as possible. The fact that you have a girl and she's applying to a science/engineering (STEM) discipline will open a lot of doors. I'm not sure if the gov't has started funding any programs yet (there has been talk) but it's something to look into.

[Larry Frank]

There is a lot to consider in helping your child pick a school. I think that what gets left out in a lot of the discussion is the return on investment. If you are going to spend a lot on an education, you also need to consider the probability of getting a job in that field and what the typical salary will be. It is a lot like many other things in that you have to understand what you are spending and what you are getting. I think that it is important that the whole family take part in the financial discussions.

My wife and I put two of kids through an elite engineering school and it cost plenty. We let them know that we were willing to make the sacrifices if they worked hard and got good grades. If they did not do this, then they could say good bye to the school. Both of them did well and got good jobs upon graduation. We have absolutely no regrets and are very pleased with the schools they went to and their career choices.

What do the elite schools offer? Typically, they offer a better teacher to student ratio. They offer good solid education with good contacts for getting jobs after graduation. A good question to ask is what per cent of the graduates get jobs in their field.

There is no doubt that there is a lot of hard work, worry and looking at budgets in deciding where someone will go to college. This a critical point in time in rearing your children and it deserves a lot of thought.

[Bob Coleman]

Phil,

PM me if you want more details on how to get into a service academy. I graduated in 1999 from the Naval Academy.

It is possible to get into medical school right after graduation, but very hard. 15 years ago, only 10 slots per class (my graduating class was 868, but average is ~1000) were available and they were allotted based on class standing after the first semester senior year. Interested people also had to be accepted into a medical school in order to take a slot, which means on top of everything required of students, she will also have to take organic chemistry and other med school classes (which probably will be on top of the courses required for her major since there are very few majors that those would be required for - basically only chemistry)

One note - do NOT, whatever you do, talk to a regular navy (or any branch recruiter) extensively about how to get in. Very few recruiters know the details, and having someone in their district get admitted and attend doesn't count towards their quota. The recruiters I knew were really good at the bait and switch - I would need a pretty good spreadsheet to tally up the people who worked for me in the navy who were six times smarter than me and ended up cleaning oil out of the bilge instead of school. Find the blue and gold officer in Milwaukee. He or she will be a navy grad who volunteers time to help get people admitted. Your daughters guidance counselor should have a phone number or contact academy admissions directly. I'm sure there are equivalents for other academies.

GO NAVY - BEAT ARMY

[Bob Coleman]

Thank you. We're going to discuss this over the next couple of weeks. It does seem like you have to commit to a path at quite a young age. I mean, what if she enters one of the academies and decides (after three years) she wants to be a PhD physicist instead of an M.D.? Does the military freak-out? She would still be willing to serve, obviously. But would they tell her that they won't pay for any additional education beyond the academy?

Grad school after an Academy - also very difficult. PM me anytime with any questions.

It IS a big decision to make at a young age. You can opt out anytime before the first day of classes junior year and owe nothing.

However, that decision only comes around once, decide against and that's it.

[Eddie Watkins]

One thing to think about, while the "elite" schools may get a higher starting salary on the first job out of college, within 5 years the salaries tend to fall back in line with their contemporaries. Success still boils down to hard work.
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...63704-224.html

[Rick Potter]

One thing that is fairly common in CA state schools is that they make it almost impossible to get all the classes you need to graduate in four years. This way it forces a fifth year tuition from some students. Don't know how other state schools compare, but it might be worth checking out.

We ended up sending our kids to a private university in Arkansas, where they guaranteed, in writing, that the kid could graduate in four years, assuming no change in major, etc. Ouachita Baptist University, rated among the best in the south.

Rick Potter

[Steve Meliza]

When I was her age I knew I wanted to go to college, but I didn't know what for and no one was going to pay for me to go. My choice was to enlist to get the MGIB and Navy College Fund kicker for a total time served of 6 years in an "advanced field". About 2 years in I knew what I wanted to go study so when my 6 years were up I was ready to go and got through my BS at our state university without having to work a side job, but it was pretty much exhausted after that and I was on my own to get my MS degree. I tried to go the Navy Academy route, but I was late in getting the process started and was only able to get a secondary nomination from my Senator, meaning I would go if the primary nominee declined (which they didn't).

My wife is an RN and currently makes more than I do on my MS degree. She got her tuition paid for at a local private university through a scholarship program with a hospital. After school she worked for 3 years for the hospital and paid really annoying taxes on the scholarship money over those 3 years, but she never went into debt and neither did her parents. It's not too early to start planning and investigating the options.

My BS and MS degree are from my state's university that is known to have a solid engineering program, even though it's not particularly high on anyone's ranking system. My manager and several co-workers graduated from the same university, but when we interview new candidates their choice of university for undergraduate isn't important and their choice of graduate school is only moderately interesting, what's between your ears is what matters because no university teaches the skills we need to do our jobs.

[Matt Meiser]

My parents put 5 kids through 13 years of Catholic school (except me, I went public for K) and all 5 of us ended up with a bachelors degree from a private institution. Along the way my mom also got her masters and my dad got a 2 year engineering degree (he already had a 4 year accounting degree and part of a masters.) You want to talk about sickening--start to add all THAT up! They could own a REALLY nice house or two! They didn't pay for my youngest brother's second bachelors degree or masters, nor my 2nd brother's masters.

Complicated story, but I started out at an out of state public university, then spent a year at an in state public university before finishing my bachelors at an "elite" private college. Due to the factors that public institutions consider for financial aid vs. what the private college considered, the out of pocket expenses were actually LOWER for my 3rd-5th year (each) than my 1st and 2nd years. One financial aid officer at the in state public university made statements that, if my ancestry was different, would have been considered illegal. That was 20 years ago () so things may have changed.

[Jim Becker]

One thing in her favor if she has the academic chops (or some other unique qualifications) is that the upper echelon schools, while expensive, also can be pretty generous with scholarship money when they really want a student...as you've pointed out. Scholarship money doesn't need to be repaid...it's not a loan. But it's hard for them to put details out there since it's very individualized. Borrowing is going to affect the net cost of tuition, books, room and board. The bottom line is that your daughter shouldn't not apply to these schools because of financial reasons. If they want her, they are going to find ways to help you and her make it happen.

BTW, Professor Dr. SWMBO got her Doctor of Science from Harvard School of Public Health. While I don't know the details since I didn't know her back then, her family was not wealthy and she did get a lot of assistance. If she had any loans, they were paid off long before I met her.