Please help me pick a dozer or talk me out of it

[Jason Roehl]

Man, you guys are a bunch of killjoys. The guy just wants to buy a toy and play.

Matt--If I had known Cat did that, I might have tried a little harder in college. At least I have a friend who owns a landscaping company (with a couple Bobcats) who knows he doesn't have to ask me twice if he needs a little help pushing some dirt around (and I push snow around for him in a medium-duty dump truck or sometimes one of the Bobcats). You can clear a lot of driveways in a hurry in a Bobcat with a 10' snow box (part of our list is a neighborhood with 32 duplexes--took me about 2 hours to clear them all of about 3-4" of snow).

[Larry Edgerton]

Man, you guys are a bunch of killjoys. The guy just wants to buy a toy and play.

).

Exactly!

I can see by the guys avitar he at least thinks about having fun. If I had done everything in my life in line with sound economic advise, I would maybe have a little more money, but bored to tears.

I have a background in heavy equipment, but have been building houses for the last 30 years. I have done what you are asking several times, and am just about ready to do it again. I look for a machine that is dirty, selling below book because it looks bad, but runs well. Do my work, clean it up and maybe give it a licquid overhaul and sell it, usually at a profit. Not crazy about old dozers for a lot of the reasons that Scott mentioned, but for what you want to do it may would not be the ideal tool anyway.

I'm going to pick up an excavator next, I need a pond as well. I have a tractor with a loader and a small dump, but I need some fun too......

Bike looks good that way........

Larry

[Darren Ford]

Thanks for all of the comments, I'm soaking it all up.

I know the cheapest, smartest way is to hire it out. But I am looking for flexibility as well, since I don't actually know what all I want to do here yet. I do know there are things I want done that I can't do with my little 35hp tractor and loader, or justify hiring out. I can't really tell my wife I'm spending xx thousand to haul in 100 loads of dirt and hire someone to build a track for our dirtbikes and quads, but if I push up my own dirt then it's got to go somewhere right?

My plan for the pond was to do the grunt work, getting the general form and sides in decent shape, then hiring in an excavator to dig the bottom deeper. The area is completely flat and low. Its dry in the summer and wet all winter.

I also understand a dozer isn't the best tool for this, but it's the most versatile right? It's like if you had to tighten bolts and drive nails, a socket set and hammer are what you need, but if you could only get one tool, a crescent wrench could do both.

[Scott T Smith]

Thanks for all of the comments, I'm soaking it all up.

I know the cheapest, smartest way is to hire it out. But I am looking for flexibility as well, since I don't actually know what all I want to do here yet. I do know there are things I want done that I can't do with my little 35hp tractor and loader, or justify hiring out. I can't really tell my wife I'm spending xx thousand to haul in 100 loads of dirt and hire someone to build a track for our dirtbikes and quads, but if I push up my own dirt then it's got to go somewhere right?

My plan for the pond was to do the grunt work, getting the general form and sides in decent shape, then hiring in an excavator to dig the bottom deeper. The area is completely flat and low. Its dry in the summer and wet all winter.

I also understand a dozer isn't the best tool for this, but it's the most versatile right? It's like if you had to tighten bolts and drive nails, a socket set and hammer are what you need, but if you could only get one tool, a crescent wrench could do both.

Darren, how big of a pond are you thinking about building? If it is 1/2 acre, I would agree with the dozer. If it's 5 acres, then I would suggest a scraper and a dozer.

Scott

[Darren Ford]

I was thinking roughly 1.5, potentially smaller and smaller as I realize how big a job it is.

[ben searight]

How deep will the pond be and where in Alabama are you located. Based on your comment regarding the area being wet in the winter, I suspect you will not be able to dig the pond with a dozer or a scraper due to groundwater issues. The biggest issue is how you far you have to move the material. A 1 1/2 acre pond, 15 foot deep will generate about 2000 loads of material that you will have to do something with. I manage heavy civil construction projects for a living, and every pond we've ever constructed has been built with an excavator and off road trucks. The dozers are used for shaping and dressing the slopes.

[David Weaver]

You could always make it deeper with a hiram ball horse-drawn scraper

There's an even smaller manpowered version of the same thing, I can't find a picture of one but I know someone mentioned that their relatives dug the basement of their house with one back in the says of hands-on family cooperation (as in they got together every day after work and took turns pulling the scraper, which was just like a shovel on wheelbarrow handles that you pulled instead of pushed. It looked like a self-torture device to me).

[Scott T Smith]

I was thinking roughly 1.5, potentially smaller and smaller as I realize how big a job it is.

Unless you have an existing low spot / draw that you're planning to dam up, you're going to have to move a lot of fill. Plus, you will need a way to compact it (a small dozer will lack sufficient concentrated weight); the least expensive option for compaction is a sheepsfoot roller.

You will need some good clay to form the core of the dam too. Personally, I would opt for three pieces of equipment. A D5 - D6 size dozer - preferably with a 6 way blade for finish work, a 12 yard elevating scraper, and a tow-behind sheepsfoot roller. The scraper will actually do a good job of compacting the fill, but you won't be able to use it on a slope; hence the need for the sheepsfoot.

Option two is to substitute a large track hoe and dump truck for the scraper, but I think that you would have to spend more $ on this combo versus the scraper.

[Jason Roehl]

I've heard that in Indiana (where I reside), one of the state agencies would put in a pond for you at no cost because of the benefit to wildlife. (Not sure if it's the DNR or IDEM--IN Dept. of Env. Management). That was a few years ago, but you might look into it with the state. That would allow you to spend your toy...err...tool money on machinery more suited to the rest of the property than stuff that's good for digging/shaping the pond, then not much else. It might be worth looking into--I'd start with calling your state's DNR.

[ben searight]

Unless you have an existing low spot / draw that you're planning to dam up, you're going to have to move a lot of fill.

I assumed a dam would not be possible because he referred to the area as completely flat and low. I think he would just be digging a hole in a wet area and allowing the groundwater to fill the pond. If that is indeed the case there really is no alternative to an excavator, unless you can wellpoint to lower the water table.

[Darren Ford]

You are absolutely right Ben, the entire property is flat. It's not wet in the summer though. It gets wet whenever the heat backs off and rains come (Oct or November) and stays wet through about end of May. Although this year with the warm dry winter it was pretty much dry in April.

I think I'm focusing on the pond a little more because it's the big task. The pond is no rush. There is a lot of clearing and other prep (including the aforementioned jumps) that I need done that I can't do with my little FEL and boxblade.

I don't want it to sound like I have a ton of land either. This is only 11 acres, but it's mostly woods and I have no room for any of my junk. I'd like to clear most of it for pasture, the pond and track I have mentioned, plus garden space and a good spot for a building to hold this stuff.

I guess I was thinking I could get some small dozer like a D4 to get me through a good chunk of this, put several hundred hours on it in the next few years, then get rid of it. I see people doing that around here all the time and didn't realize how specialized each piece of equipment was. It's like motorcycles, you need about 6 different ones.

[ben searight]

Well since your in AL I assume most of your clearing will be pine trees. I'd find a local pulpwooder to cut as much timber as you can get them to take, and then you can push up the stumps and burn them. If you get a dozer you'll need a root rake. It will allow you to get under the stumps and pull them out. If you try using just the blade, you'll have to dig them out. (you can't "push" much of a stump with a D4). When you get ready to dig your pond, use an excavator. Whether you buy it, rent it, or hire someone, it is the right machine for the job. If the ground is stable enough you could haul the material in a regular dump truck (hire a local company) and grade it with the dozer when you are done.

[Jim Matthews]

If you bought a Kubota that could handle grass cutting duty, why not?

You'll also need a proper truck and trolley to haul it around once your friends and relations hear you own a backhoe.
One thing - call before you dig http://www.call811.com/ even if it's your patch o' dirt.

[Darren Ford]

The wife and I took the quads out today to really look over the property and review our plans. We are both nervous about taking out the trees, but its all useless to us if we don't. Besides, it's just unmanaged woods, and trees are constantly dying and falling. As an SMCer, it probably doesn't surprise you that every tree that comes down is going to rip a part of me. However; we have 4 pines dead from some disease, 2 dead from lightning, and we had to drop an old (probably 4ft diameter) oak a couple years ago that died from lightning. We have probably a dozen other dead from who knows what. I counted about 140 pines (12inch up to 30+ inch) that need to go, and probably half as many oaks that need to go. Plus countless smaller pines and hardwoods. We want to leave as many as possible but still make the property neat and manageable. One thing that encourages us it looking across the road at about 300 acres that was solid woods when I moved here, but has been cleared and now looks pretty nice. Behind us is all woods for maybe a mile. The only building we can see is our neighbors barn on one side, and it's a ways to that.

[george newbury]

I've heard that in Indiana (where I reside), one of the state agencies would put in a pond for you at no cost because of the benefit to wildlife. (Not sure if it's the DNR or IDEM--IN Dept. of Env. Management). That was a few years ago, but you might look into it with the state. That would allow you to spend your toy...err...tool money on machinery more suited to the rest of the property than stuff that's good for digging/shaping the pond, then not much else. It might be worth looking into--I'd start with calling your state's DNR.

That's what happened with my family back in about 1966. Up in Vermont we had the state put in a "half acre pond". They did it all with with a large (D5? D6?) dozer. To make a long story short my Dad got along well with the dozer operator. It was supposed to be a short few day project. The guy got the dam built in a short time, and the area cleared. My Dad talked the guy into leaving the dozer over a long weekend, with a wink. By Tuesday we had a three acre pond, probably about 15' deep.

Well worth the extra fuel and pipe he had to buy.

Could walk out the basement door and catch trout for breakfast, lunch and dinner, when the ice was out.