Entry level laser - being quoted very high.

[Kenny Schmidt]

We are looking at a 40 watt entry level laser and are being quoted very high from Epilog and Trotec and Universal too I believe.

The exact lasers we are looking at are the Trotec speedy 100 40 watt with air assist, Epilog 40 watt mini 18x12, and the Universal 3.50 40 watt.

The Epilog is being quoted at list price with the stand thrown in and that's the huge favor there...

Then the Trotec when I was initially quoted on the speedy 100 a similar price to the Epilog 40 list price but today was told that was the 30 watt quote even though I thought I was quoted on the Rayjet 30 watt and then the Speedy 100 40 watt since we were planning on 40 watts for quite some time. Now the 40 watt price and 50 watt quote price on the speedy just seemed insane. The whole cost of one of those tubes is 3-4k isn't it?

I'm not sure if putting the prices down is allowed or what not. Can someone PM me what reasonable prices should be? There should be show specials / SMC discounts going on but it sure doesn't seem like it at all.


Btw we are going to be engraving mostly, starting with phone cases and going from there, already use a 40 watt machine that isn't ours...

Thanks

[Martin Boekers]

Search the forum on laser pricing, in the last week or so they have been quite a few discussions on it.
Trotech gives a discount for SMC members but others have got a larger discount from attending a trade show.

If you are comparing Chinese lasers to Made in USA there is a VERY large diffeernce in pricing as well as service.
You really can't compare the foreign brands on pricing.

[Kenny Schmidt]

Search the forum on laser pricing, in the last week or so they have been quite a few discussions on it.
Trotech gives a discount for SMC members but others have got a larger discount from attending a trade show.

If you are comparing Chinese lasers to Made in USA there is a VERY large diffeernce in pricing as well as service.
You really can't compare the foreign brands on pricing.

I've already read through over 100 threads. Only could find 1 thread on one of these machines at least that was within the past couple years. I never mentioned anything about the Chinese lasers but have read enough that they seem to be 1/4-1/5 of the price and excel at cutting more so than engraving. Maybe I'm bad at searching but I haven't been able to find too much on pricing of these exact models within the past year.

What's throwing me off is that the price difference of speedy 100 30 watt and 40 watt is $4,500 from what I was quoted. I suppose it was just unfortunate that I thought I was originally quoted on the 40 watt but it was the 30 watt.

I'm aware of the SMC discount and asked about it as well. Epilog is at their list price which I have read from multiple threads would be a very bad price to pay. Not sure why we aren't offered a deal at all.

[Steve Clarkson]

Kenny, there's no rule that I'm aware of about posting laser prices, so I wold feel free to do it.......it might make it easier to understand what you're talking about.

[Joe Pelonio]

$4,500 seems an awful lot for 10 more watts, unless they were overstocked and giving a great discount on the 30 watt machines. Lasers equipment is not like TVs nor even cars, there will not be much in the way of discounts given. More often they will "throw-in" something like an air pump or exhaust fan rather than give a discount. When I was looking and wne to a show the discounts offered for buying there were 5% or less.

[Ronald Erickson]

Kenny,

I feel your pain; I just survived purchasing a laser. Here is the post I made discussing the pricing I received through Trotec just a few weeks back:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...-Creek-Pricing.

In the thread, I posted my initial price quotes from Trotec (Speedy 300 @ 60w/80w and Speedy 100 @ 40w/60w) and Epilog (list pricing) in the thread. When you compare the list pricing on a Speedy 300 @ 80 watts to the pricing offered at the previous PA show, it was a 35% difference (aka, the actual sales price with options included was 65% of list pricing).

I asked about posting pricing information and was advised it is ok to do as long as the pricing is factual and was not confidential. During my negotiations with Trotec, my local vendor rep did come down from the initial pricing. Unfortunately I was asked not to publish the final negotiated price.

The best advice I can give: Attend a trade show if at all possible. The pricing should be at it's lowest during a trade show; the vendors are close to one another they should be willing to deal.

There is a trade show going on today and tomorrow (SGIA in Las Vegas). Vendors may be willing to work with you outside of going to the show, but there are no guarantees.

[Doug Novic]

Kenny,

Went through the same sticker shock and started serious searching. Settled on a Rabbit Laser. Made in China but serviced out of Ohio. Spent a realistic dollar amount and that was over a year ago. No problems and there are a lot of midnight hours on that machine. Getting ready to get a smaller one from Rabbit Laser USA to compliment the one I have now.

Good luck.

[Martin Boekers]

I've already read through over 100 threads. Only could find 1 thread on one of these machines at least that was within the past couple years. I never mentioned anything about the Chinese lasers but have read enough that they seem to be 1/4-1/5 of the price and excel at cutting more so than engraving. Maybe I'm bad at searching but I haven't been able to find too much on pricing of these exact models within the past year.

What's throwing me off is that the price difference of speedy 100 30 watt and 40 watt is $4,500 from what I was quoted. I suppose it was just unfortunate that I thought I was originally quoted on the 40 watt but it was the 30 watt.

I'm aware of the SMC discount and asked about it as well. Epilog is at their list price which I have read from multiple threads would be a very bad price to pay. Not sure why we aren't offered a deal at all.

Kenny, sorry I didn't mean to infer anything. If you follow SMC you'll notice that many newcomers to
the forum ask similar basic questions without reading previous postings or searching the forum. Many to
have questioned the higher cost of Epilog, Trotec etc as they haven't researched to find the advantages
and dissadvantages of a Chinese laser and only see pricing. Ronald posted a thread that was started a
week or so ago on pricing and trade shows. Trade show are a good way to purchase as you can see all
machines in action and negtiate on the spot. Remember you can negotiate other items besides price.
Software, rotary, shipping costs etc can be negotiated. One issue though is territory, you may have to purchase
from a particular distributor who many not give as much latitude in pricing as another.


Good luck with your future purchase and we look forward to more postings as you start up this venture!

[Scott Shepherd]

Maybe everyone can post the cheapest prices and then the local sales reps can all go out of business. These people are there to make a living and to help you. If you post all the details on the greatest deals ever, you'll be cutting their throats. I'm not sure about the people you know, but if the people I know aren't too keen to help you when you're taking money out of their pockets.

There is no "one size fits all" pricing on lasers. Act like it's a car, used or new, and go negotiate your best deal.

Keep posting it all publicly and you'll watch all your local help dry up.

You wouldn't like it if you sold lasers, so why treat the people that sell lasers like that? If you sold lasers and you paid $12,000 for them and anything over that was put in your pocket, would you sell them for $12,500 or the start at the list price provided by the manufacturer for $19,500? My guess is every one of you would start the ball in the $19,500 range and work down.

In my opinion, I think it's completely disrespectful to post prices publicly. I'm in business to succeed. I bet you are too, so why not allow those that sell lasers the same chance to succeed?

Also, if you keep posting the prices, they'll fix it, they'll all just stop going low and stay higher because they know it's going to be posted online. Makes no sense to me at all. It's not MY job to get YOU a good price on a laser. It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

[Walt Langhans]

It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

Like it or not, he's got a good point. Also if you don't / can't want to negotiate then buy a laser with a listed price like Hurricane or Full Spectrum.

[Ross Moshinsky]

People clearly don't like this blind pricing model. It's nothing new. People for years and years hated dealing with car salesman because they always felt they were getting scammed. Now all invoice prices are posted on the net and it's a tougher life as a car salesman but people feel less likely to be ripped off walking out of a car dealer. It just takes someone coming out and posting the prices and the system can change.

The reason the system is so hard to change is because it works off fear and shame. I contact the vendors and have no idea their profit margins. They send me a price and I blindly negotiate. I get to a price I can live with and buy the machine for what I consider a fair price but then someone says "I got a smokin' deal for X, Y, and Z" and both sides never really say how much they spent and what they got for that money because of the social niceties of it all. The reality is, I could have gotten the "smokin" deal and the other person got ripped off. Rarely will either side know because neither wants to feel like an idiot.

I'm not going to discuss how much a sales person should or shouldn't make per sale. That's a can of worms I'm unwilling to open.

[Scott Shepherd]

Now all invoice prices are posted on the net and it's a tougher life as a car salesman but people feel less likely to be ripped off walking out of a car dealer. It just takes someone coming out and posting the prices and the system can change.

You're kidding, right? Do you think for one split second that a car dealer salesman is making less now than they were before that went to that model? Absolutely not. What you have now is all the profit hidden all over the place in the paper work that "base" it all off. If you think for one minute that car salesmen would show up to work and make 1/10 of what they made before, you're wrong.

That's exactly my point. Keep posting all this pricing information online and then no one will get a good deal. We'll all pay high prices and you won't be able to negotiate anything. You might think that's a great model. I don't. If I can buy a laser for $16,995 now and others might end up at $18,500, then all they'll do is say the new price is $18,500 and everyone pays that. So to help you, EVERYONE pays more. Because YOU couldn't negotiate on your own behalf, now I have to pay more? That's nonsense.

Like I said, if someone were taking your pricing for jobs and posting it online for your competitors to see, I don't think you'd be real happy about it either.

I'm just asking to have some sort of thought about it all, other than the selfish one of you wanting the best price, and realize that you are actually damaging ALL of the laser manufacturers when you go down this path. If Epilog quotes a price of $16,995 and it's posted online, do you think it's fair to Epilog for Universal and Trotec to now see what Epilog is quoting? That would mean Universal could make that call, PM, or email and say "Great News, the price of the Universal is $16,895".

If you wouldn't want it done to your business, then don't do it to someone else's.

[Jerome Stanek]

With cars you can shop for the best deal and compare item for item now on the internet. Not try and guess that you are getting the same thing for the same money. Why not post prices.

[Ronald Erickson]

Maybe everyone can post the cheapest prices and then the local sales reps can all go out of business. These people are there to make a living and to help you. If you post all the details on the greatest deals ever, you'll be cutting their throats. I'm not sure about the people you know, but if the people I know aren't too keen to help you when you're taking money out of their pockets.

There is no "one size fits all" pricing on lasers. Act like it's a car, used or new, and go negotiate your best deal.

Keep posting it all publicly and you'll watch all your local help dry up.

You wouldn't like it if you sold lasers, so why treat the people that sell lasers like that? If you sold lasers and you paid $12,000 for them and anything over that was put in your pocket, would you sell them for $12,500 or the start at the list price provided by the manufacturer for $19,500? My guess is every one of you would start the ball in the $19,500 range and work down.

In my opinion, I think it's completely disrespectful to post prices publicly. I'm in business to succeed. I bet you are too, so why not allow those that sell lasers the same chance to succeed?

Also, if you keep posting the prices, they'll fix it, they'll all just stop going low and stay higher because they know it's going to be posted online. Makes no sense to me at all. It's not MY job to get YOU a good price on a laser. It's YOUR job to get YOUR best price.

I do see your point. I'm all for supporting business and I'm all for a business making a profit. But are you really taking money out of their pocket by negotiating the best deal you can? Or are you preventing them from taking money from your pocket? That money in your pocket means more food on the table. Or maybe it means you can buy the materials you use to make the products you in turn sell.

Just like car dealers, laser manufacturers sell equipment daily. They have all the experience in the world with how to sell their product and how much they can afford to discount their product to make a sale. We, as the consumers of their products, buy them once. Or maybe we buy a few machines over our lifetime. But ultimately we have very limited experience with regards to purchasing the product they sell.

As an inexperienced consumer, it's my job to become informed. Not only do I want to find out about price, but I also want to find out about other's experiences with regards to working with a particular brand. Questions like which models are easiest to use for a beginner, which manufacturers have strong after sale support, which lasers require their operators to know how to tinker to get the machine working correctly. Wouldn't it be disrespectful for someone to post ANY information regarding a particular brand? By posting that you have to tweak chinese laser brand X because they have poor quality control, you are potentially costing them a sale.

[Ronald Erickson]

You're kidding, right? Do you think for one split second that a car dealer salesman is making less now than they were before that went to that model? Absolutely not. What you have now is all the profit hidden all over the place in the paper work that "base" it all off. If you think for one minute that car salesmen would show up to work and make 1/10 of what they made before, you're wrong.

That's exactly my point. Keep posting all this pricing information online and then no one will get a good deal. We'll all pay high prices and you won't be able to negotiate anything. You might think that's a great model. I don't. If I can buy a laser for $16,995 now and others might end up at $18,500, then all they'll do is say the new price is $18,500 and everyone pays that. So to help you, EVERYONE pays more. Because YOU couldn't negotiate on your own behalf, now I have to pay more? That's nonsense.

Like I said, if someone were taking your pricing for jobs and posting it online for your competitors to see, I don't think you'd be real happy about it either.

I'm just asking to have some sort of thought about it all, other than the selfish one of you wanting the best price, and realize that you are actually damaging ALL of the laser manufacturers when you go down this path. If Epilog quotes a price of $16,995 and it's posted online, do you think it's fair to Epilog for Universal and Trotec to now see what Epilog is quoting? That would mean Universal could make that call, PM, or email and say "Great News, the price of the Universal is $16,895".

If you wouldn't want it done to your business, then don't do it to someone else's.

Do you honestly believe that laser manufacturers don't have very intimate knowledge of their competitors pricing models already? Do you believe they haven't reverse engineered their competitors products and know approximately how much they cost to make?

Can you say you've never looked at a competitors product to figure out if you can do it cheaper? How is that fair to your competitor? Aren't you taking money out of his pocket by selling a product or service cheaper? It's just the way capitalism works. You may not like someone price shopping your services, but how are you going to avoid it?

My suggestion is switch your tactics and concentrate more on building loyalty. Maybe your prices are higher, but then maybe your services are superior to someone running a shop in their basement. Get your first time customer in the door and profit from their word of mount. It's the return business that keeps you running, not the one time sale.

I don't believe anyone is being selfish by not wanting to overspend. No one is saying that laser manufacturers shouldn't make a profit. But I'm sure that people don't like the idea of funding someone's impromptu Bahamas trip because you overpaid by 35%.

While it may not be my job to get someone the best deal they can, I'm certainly more than happy to do so. Isn't that why we post on The Creek? To help others?

Edit: One last thing that I forgot to add...

If all the laser manufacturers decide to stop competing on price and keep their prices high, China (or someone else) is going to get smart and release a higher quality, lower priced product with local support. It will devastate the companies who don't adjust. Again, it's how capitalism works.

Personally, if my posting pricing information (in it's current limited form) helps someone else secure a deal, then I'm happy. And you know what? I bet the laser manufacturer that sold that person a laser is happy too.