Finish questions for first cherry project

[Prashun Patel]

Sanding past 220 (and even 150 or 180 on some woods) begins to burnish the wood. This reduces its ability to absorb anything. This is bad if you are trying to color the wood, since dyes and stains require adequate penetration. Topcoats, however - even oil (at least that's my contrarian view) - do not require deep penetration to do their protection job. In this case, it has been my experience that sanding to 320 or 400 actually helps the first couple topcoats go on more evenly than if only sanded coarser. There are anecdotes of people who sand up to 1000 before putting on a topcoat. You have to pick what feels right to you.

For strict oil or oil/varnish (i.e., in-the-wood) finishes, sanding to finer grits really helps in getting a silky soft feel in the end product. However, I will say that I have noticed on a piece of quilted maple I'm working on now that when sanded to 400 and then oiled, the figure did not seem to accentuate as well as I thought it should. When I sanded back to 150, and started applying the oil, I got better results.

For film-forming wipe-on or straight varnishes or even shellac, sanding to 400 helps those first few coats go on smoother and even. In the end, it allows me to put on less finish and still achieve an even sheen - which looks best (to me).

In the end, perhaps on this project you shld go with conventional wisdom and sand to 220. Again, you won't go wrong, and it'll provide a baseline should you decide in the future to deviate up or down in grit prep.

If it were me, and this were my first, here's the sched I'd follow (it's more or less similar to what was recommended in a recent article in FWW):

sand all parts before assembly: 100, 150, 220
Wipe or brush on a good coat of Waterlox or equivalent (after an hour or two, wipe off any pooling). Let dry overnight.
Sand all parts gently again with 220 until smooth. Wipe off debris
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts gently again with 400 until smooth. Wipe of debris.
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts with 600 until smooth. Wipe off debris.
Wipe on one more thin coat of Waterlox.

Done this way, you can get a professional looking/feeling finish with minimal fuss.

To each his own.

[Jason Zahn]

Prashun, thanks so much for the info and advice. I was thinking something along the lines of your proposed finishing schedule, but that clarifies a lot for me and gives me something more concrete to go by. I'm sure I'll have more newbie questions as I get started...

jason

[sheldon pettit]

Every job i have done that were my clients i have sanded to a minimum of 320, no matter what finish i'm using. I have been writing a book and i address the sanding verses finish among other things that are right yet also wrong, i call the chapter "myth" information, with subtitles of myth-conceptions/myth understandings/etc., this is one of those i label myth-understandings

Most of the wood finishing industry does sand to anywhere from 150/180/220 at most. but there is a good reason for such and it's not wrong, but it only applies to facets concerning time/labor/choice of finishing materials/and how all of those are used and applied. If anyone wants to sand further and use the correct materials to achieve the desired end results, then there is no real limit past those abrasives available that one can choose to use.

For the industrial wood finishing companies that want or need to achieve a color using pigment stains, sanding past 150 grit can lighten the color to an unacceptable degree, that applies to home owners and hobbyist also. In those cases, they or you are not wrong at stopping there or even coarser if necessary if that's all you have to stain with or what you want to use ok?

On the other-hand, if those companies or you used dyes to obtain the bulk of the ground color and then applied the pigment stain over it to be in or to warm up that ground colored dye, you could easily go as fine as 220-320 or in Prashun's case 400. The industrial companies also try to use higher solids coatings normally, for this reason, they prefer more tooth to increase penetration and adhesion of those coatings no matter what they are. But it's very simple to over thin/reduce any coating, even polyester to the point where it is able to soak in a polished surface like a few pen makers who sand to 12,000 - yes 12,000 grit and apply cyanoacrylate glues as there finish which will readily penetrate any wood and have excellent adhesion and polish up very high,.

Does that mean everyone should do this? of course not, but if all three things are in proper relation to each other, there is really no limit as to how fine you can abrade wood to and still get a good finish with all the necessary attributes. Every manufacturer has his reasons for finishing the way they do, it's not wrong, but like most things it is "faceted information" that pertain to a certain set of desired circumstances and needs they have to do so ok? The "myth" is that because that's become the acceptable norm, or prep gospel, most everyone else follows suite and ends up with a diminished result compared to someone who experiments outside the box like myself or even Prashun. Don't get me wrong i test all my methods or did in the past to make sure just as the big guys do, there were no risk of finish failure past doing it the acceptable or recommended ways, or unneeded liabilities with doing such, i'm no fool, and i hate re-doing any work because of faulty methods or materials or preparation faults. I won't go any further but someday you can see the whole picture when my book is ready to publish ok?


Meanwhile, Prashun's methods will be just fine if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

[Prashun Patel]

...if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

(Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.

[sheldon pettit]

(Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.

LOL , sorry Prashun i got slightly carried away in stating "any Coating", almost all industrial coatings users as well as most custom shops, do-not use off the shelf slow-dry coatings like varnishes or oils,etc.. they rarely either brush or wipe except if absolutely necessary. In business, time is money, and the biggest obstacle to overcome to be profitable is mainly why. At times i forget that when commenting here and elsewhere But that does not negate the fact that even an already thin coating as what you speak of can be further thinned if needed to achieve more penetration into the surface if and when it is abraded to even finer grits than you have tried as yet. Give it a try sometime when you are between other projects and test to see ok?

[Jason Zahn]

Sheldon, Prashun, and Kent...thanks guys for some great input and insight into these different finishes; I feel much more prepared to go
on with this project. I think I'm probably leaning towards going with the Waterlox this time around as a matter of keeping things simpler since I'm not very experienced

I'll let you know how things work out.

Thank you all!!

[Jon Grider]

First my disclaimer, Sheldon and Prashun certainly have more knowledge and experience than me and I'm not giving my input to contradict anything they have said; I'm merely stating what works pretty well for me on the cherry projects I have made, and what is readily available for me at the local home improvement store. I sand to 220, then flood the cherry with clear Danish oil and after 20 minutes wipe off the excess. I do the Danish oil thing twice and then let it cure for 3 days. I then apply 2-4 coats of satin wipe on polyurethane following the directions on the can, sanding lightly between all coats. This is probably not a purists technique, but I do like the way it looks by combing the penetrating oil and poly overcoat.

[sheldon pettit]

And that's all that really matters Jon, if you like the outcome and the service life of the end product then be my guest