pig sticker...

[Jim Palmer]

Using my large mallet does not have me wanting for a heavier option.

As to control, there seems to be more control when used in conjunction with the larger handle on a pig sticker than the handles on my bevel edged and straight edged chisels of the same size.

As long as my fingers remain unsmashed, the blows only land on the head of the pig sticker and a clean mortise results it is difficult to imagine what more control one needs.

I have cut mortises with bench chisels and beveled chisels light to heavy. My preference is for a pig sticker for removing a lot of stock quickly. This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

jtk

I was simply offering a long term craftsman's perspective, as I've worked for many years using all of the chisel options regularly on a professional basis. You're quite mistaken if you're under the impression that a larger chisel haft allows you more control during use, as your point of focus should be the cutting edge and not the handle.

Your original description may tend to mislead the inexperienced reader to mistakenly think over zealous use of an underweight mallet is advisable. Hence my comments. There was no mention of larger chisel handles which offer no realistic benefit other than the possession of a larger target area and increased torque when clearing waste from larger/heavier mortise. Pig stickers aren't much more than a heavily bladed mortise chisel, traditionally hafted in a manner that's readily replaced on site if damaged during use and - the Catch 22 situation - primarily because such a handling style is very prone to splitting due to poor COP and the inclination for some to whale away on them with underweight mallets. Haft them with a hooped handle and you automatically possess a better balanced chisel.

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Their availability in sizes 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8" tends to confirm and doesn't deny the existing overlaps in use between the various chisel types - as I'd already very clearly stated. It merely confirms mortise & tenon joints of all sizes see use in framing and very often involving door and window construction where smaller joints often see use. All mortise chisels are framing chisels and heavy framing isn't restricted to construction work.

Hooped sash mortise chisels tend to be better suited to furniture and cabinetry work, due to their lighter handling, refined COP and resulting improvement in balance.

[David Weaver]

I'd venture so far as to say that the RI pigstickers are intended pretty much for cabinet use, regardless of historical accuracy. A lot of the pictures of the older chisels with one steep single bevel seem to suggest that they were not used for small mortises. The thickness of the chisels from top to bottom of some of the older chisels suggests the same (and some are not as large as the monstrous thing sellers pulled out).

I still would rather use the oval bolstered style. None of the handles on mine have split, but I have always hit them with a nylon mallet, and always in the center of the handle.

[Jim Koepke]

I was simply offering a long term craftsman's perspective, as I've worked for many years using all of the chisel options regularly on a professional basis. You're quite mistaken if you're under the impression that a larger chisel haft allows you more control during use, as your point of focus should be the cutting edge and not the handle.

My use of chisels allows me to focus on the edge of the blade and where it is cutting/going/doing while hitting the proper spot on the head of a chisel. Part of the added control is from the larger size of the chisel and it not being able to turn in the stock

Your original description may tend to mislead the inexperienced reader to mistakenly think over zealous use of an underweight mallet is advisable.

If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet.

It seems you have misread my post or my intent. It is also likely you have not read a few of my posts about using a different mallet for different kinds of work:

Every one has their own way of doing things.

My choice is broken down as to whether the chisel is being tapped, hit, whacked or whaled upon.

Each successive term is an increase in the degree of force behind the blow of the mallet.

As stated in another thread on mallets, my large mallet weighs in at a pound and a half. Small sledges start in at 3 pounds. My plan is to make another larger mallet, but the wood has not yet come my way. A mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet.

Hence my comments. There was no mention of larger chisel handles which offer no realistic benefit other than the possession of a larger target area and increased torque when clearing waste from larger/heavier mortise. Pig stickers aren't much more than a heavily bladed mortise chisel, traditionally hafted in a manner that's readily replaced on site if damaged during use and - the Catch 22 situation - primarily because such a handling style is very prone to splitting due to poor COP and the inclination for some to whale away on them with underweight mallets. Haft them with a hooped handle and you automatically possess a better balanced chisel.

As to control, there seems to be more control when used in conjunction with the larger handle on a pig sticker than the handles on my bevel edged and straight edged chisels of the same size.
[snip]
I have cut mortises with bench chisels and beveled chisels light to heavy. My preference is for a pig sticker for removing a lot of stock quickly. This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

This is where the larger handles was mentioned. With the traditional shape, it is easier, at least for me, to orient the blade.

Also mentioned was this:

This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

If something works better for another's style of work or what they choose to do, fine with me. What works for me may not work for you. The difference of our ways is the beauty of having a forum where these different ways or methods of work can be discussed, hopefully without disrespect for other's work or methods.

In my experience mortising is faster with a pig sticker. That is why we often say, ymmv.

All mortise chisels are framing chisels and heavy framing isn't restricted to construction work.

Hooped sash mortise chisels tend to be better suited to furniture and cabinetry work, due to their lighter handling, refined COP and resulting improvement in balance.

I am not really sure what COP means. Hope that not knowing doesn't mark me as a dunderboobie, but that doesn't bother me either.

BTW, some of my work does involve framing with larger stock. Too many smaller chisels with bellies and bows have crossed my path to want to start cutting a through mortise in 4x4 with one of my lighter chisels.

It is highly doubtful you will convince me to give up using tools already in my shop and working as well as they are.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

...I am not really sure what COP means....

My best guess is center of phorce.

[Jim Palmer]

Try Centre Of Percussion. Striking off centre of the sweet-spot on any wooden chisel handle with any frequency or force and you soon damage either the handle, your hand or wrist. Hence the preference for hooped wooden handles of comparatively smaller diameter - to pig stickers - for heavier work.

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I've read plenty of your offerings Jim and am quite surprised you display such attitude when no offense was offered or intended. You've perhaps misunderstood the meaning within the content of my posts and misread them as personal attacks on your views.... Which they're certainly not. All I've done is convey information regarding the tools being discussed, as well as optional alternatives.

I do, however, remain surprised by your somewhat cavalier attitude concerning the fact that novice readers and users risk injury through over-powering blows when using underweight mallet if following your theory based guidance.

"If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet."

[Pat Barry]

Interesting to watch the video of Paul Sellers and equally / more interesting discussion. My own (limited and frustrating) experience was with standard bench chisel. Now after watching the video I am convinced of three things. 1) my chisel was not sharp enough, 2) my wood was not straight grained enough, 3) I did not have the benefit of the glass. Item 1 I can resolve now that I have learned more about sharpening. Item 2 is another problem. Do folks generally select wood (straight grained) and make sure it is oriented in such a favorable orientation when they plan out their work? For me, I have spent more effort making sure the show face is best appearance and the worst appearance ends up where the mortise action needs to occur. I guess I'd like to use only straight grained wood but I have to work with what I have. The mortice chisel would undoubtedly work better for my situations due to geometry. I fight that stupid chisel all the time because the narrow blade gets influenced by the grain of the wood so much. Item 3 I know was for video purposes. I estimate that having two sides to cut at least doubles the work effort required and complexity of the task, none the less it was very illustrative of the techniques and for that I am grateful.

[David Weaver]

Interesting to watch the video of Paul Sellers and equally / more interesting discussion. My own (limited and frustrating) experience was with standard bench chisel. Now after watching the video I am convinced of three things. 1) my chisel was not sharp enough, 2) my wood was not straight grained enough, 3) I did not have the benefit of the glass. Item 1 I can resolve now that I have learned more about sharpening. Item 2 is another problem. Do folks generally select wood (straight grained) and make sure it is oriented in such a favorable orientation when they plan out their work? For me, I have spent more effort making sure the show face is best appearance and the worst appearance ends up where the mortise action needs to occur. I guess I'd like to use only straight grained wood but I have to work with what I have. The mortice chisel would undoubtedly work better for my situations due to geometry. I fight that stupid chisel all the time because the narrow blade gets influenced by the grain of the wood so much. Item 3 I know was for video purposes. I estimate that having two sides to cut at least doubles the work effort required and complexity of the task, none the less it was very illustrative of the techniques and for that I am grateful.

What you're experiencing is exactly why a sash mortise (or a fairly thinly tipped pigsticker like the RI chisels) is preferable to a bench chisel for cutting mortises. It's not that you can't use a bench chisel, but the thin sides mean that you will have to provide more influence in terms of twist to keep the chisel on track.

A sash mortise chisel with a relatively long handle and good steel might be nice, but I'm not aware of anyone making any such thing. LN's sash mortise is expensive for what it is and the handle is short. You shouldn't have to be that picky about the wood if the chisel is designed for mortising.

[Jim Koepke]

Try Centre Of Percussion.

I've read plenty of your offerings Jim and am quite surprised you display such attitude when no offense was offered or intended. You've perhaps misunderstood the meaning within the content of my posts and misread them as personal attacks on your views.... Which they're certainly not. All I've done is convey information regarding the tools being discussed, as well as optional alternatives.

I do, however, remain surprised by your somewhat cavalier attitude concerning the fact that novice readers and users risk injury through over-powering blows when using underweight mallet if following your theory based guidance.

"If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet."

You inferred my suggesting people use smaller mallets and overdrive them. I did not. You somehow came to the conclusion that my largest mallet is some kind of light weight and therefore my suggestion of everyone should find what works best for them somehow means they should start out flailing away with a light weight mallet.

To me, it seems you are not only being critical of me personally, but you are also trying to change the meaning of what I have said.

If someone is "following theory based guidance" they would know about force and mass. If they want to use mallets and chisels, they should know before they start.

My most heart felt statement in all of this and in many other instances is people need to use the method that works best for them.

My statement about "first lesson in physics" comes from a real life situation where I made a very light mallet for a friend. It was intended for use on his home made chiming instrument. He was extremely happy with it. So happy in fact he decided to take it with him camping to drive tent stakes. He learned quickly he had made a mistake. He learned about the application and transfer of force. He did not injure himself other than his pride. That is sometimes the price of learning.

We can all learn from all we do.

We may disagree, but we can agree to so do.

jtk

[Jim Palmer]

You inferred my suggesting people use smaller mallets and overdrive them. I did not. You somehow came to the conclusion that my largest mallet is some kind of light weight and therefore my suggestion of everyone should find what works best for them somehow means they should start out flailing away with a light weight mallet.

To me, it seems you are not only being critical of me personally, but you are also trying to change the meaning of what I have said.

If someone is "following theory based guidance" they would know about force and mass. If they want to use mallets and chisels, they should know before they start.

My most heart felt statement in all of this and in many other instances is people need to use the method that works best for them.

My statement about "first lesson in physics" comes from a real life situation where I made a very light mallet for a friend. It was intended for use on his home made chiming instrument. He was extremely happy with it. So happy in fact he decided to take it with him camping to drive tent stakes. He learned quickly he had made a mistake. He learned about the application and transfer of force. He did not injure himself other than his pride. That is sometimes the price of learning.

We can all learn from all we do.

We may disagree, but we can agree to so do.

jtk

Theory based guidance is where someone offers guidance whilst lacking practical experience. I clearly stated you incorrectly suggest whacking chisels in an uncontrolled manner which may lead to injury of the tool, user or both.

The heaviest price of learning by such example is injury and a juvenile or novice may risk severe injury if convinced by your suggestions centred around the use of force when driving chisels. I'd already attempted to correct this oversight by suggesting more controlled use involving correctly hefted mallet.

The first lesson in any working environment is "Work safely".

[Jim Koepke]

Theory based guidance is where someone offers guidance whilst lacking practical experience.

My misunderstanding, my thought is the theories of physics and other sciences are useful in working wood. (ymmv)

I clearly stated you incorrectly suggest whacking chisels in an uncontrolled manner which may lead to injury of the tool, user or both.

I am sorry, nowhere in my posts can I find my suggestion that someone should wield a mallet in an uncontrolled manner.

My testiness may be due to ideas which are not mine being attributed to me.

Maybe my comment, "whack it with mighty blows," summons an image of someone holding a huge mallet wound up with the head at knee level, eyes closed, tongue between teeth with their thumb atop a chisel handle. Maybe cartoons no longer teach our young about the inevitable outcome of such work practices.

It seems unlikely to me a person cutting their first mortise is going to somehow chance upon my post and only my post when they search information on using a pig sticker cut a mortise.

The heaviest price of learning by such example is injury and a juvenile or novice may risk severe injury if convinced by your suggestions centred around the use of force when driving chisels. I'd already attempted to correct this oversight by suggesting more controlled use involving correctly hefted mallet. The first lesson in any working environment is "Work safely".

I understand your concern and agree with your statement on safety. Woodworking has many dangers due to sharp tools coupled with the perils of inattention.

This makes me think of Mark Twain's comment of the man who carries a cat by the tail learning something he could learn in no other way and leaving him with a memory which never will grow dim nor fade with time.

jtk