The tool rest and other stories...

[David DeCristoforo]

The tool rest thread has got me thinking (uh oh). First off, I am somewhat appalled by the whole thing. Not really though because it is indicative of the current state of manufacturing, not only here in this country but world wide. High quality products seem to have been relegated to the same archive as "backwards compatibility". Not to say that there are not good products out there because there are and some exceptional ones as well. But the "mainstream" stuff is just not making it.


The "unnamed manufacturer" of the part in question is well known and, as I understand it, a great supporter of this forum. I once posted a comment about a planer I bought from this same manufacturer that had a nasty habit of slinging the drive chain off it's sprockets. There was no way to remove a link because then the chain would have been too short. And no adjustment to be found anywhere. A conversation with the manufacturer's support people yielded this comment: "Oh yeah… that's a problem… no, there is no way to adjust it. No, we can't really do anything about it…" I ended up fabricating a tensioner for the chain which took care of the problem.


Some time later I posted this "story:" here on SMC. The aficionados of this unnamed manufacturer thundered into the conversation and I was throughly castigated for being unfair. The main reason given was that my machine was one made in the early days of the company's existence and that their quality had "come up" dramatically in the intervening years as had their customer support. But now. here we are reading about the same kind of nonsense. Sorry… nothing we can do. And so machine owners are left with having to spend additional time and money modifying their equipment, essentially completing the manufacturing process themselves. I suppose one could justify this by considering the lower cost of these machines as compared to more costly options and accepting the "you get what you pay for" philosophy.


This would not be too much of an issue if it were not so prevalent. Unfortunately, this is the prevailing attitude of manufacturers in general. One of the largest manufacturers of computers and personal electronic devices has had an ongoing issue with their charger cords which fray and short out with distressing regularity. It's an issue that has been discussed "ad nauseum" on the internet. And still, the manufacturer not only does nothing to correct the problem, they refuse to even acknowledge it. Examples like this are so numerous that it would be folly to attempt to document all of them.


These large "global" corporations are IMMHO, simply too large and cumbersome to have the flexibility to move quickly to deal with issues like these. The ones that get the top marks for responsiveness and customer service tend to be the smaller, privately owned companies. These guys can be much lighter on their feet and can make changes much faster and at much less cost when the need arrises. Their products tend to cost more initially but, more often than not, the higher cost is offset by better quality, longer working life, fewer problems and more responsive service when it is needed.


I would suggest that if you are going to buy from a company selling the lowest cost option, you might expect to encounter some issues you are going to have to deal with yourself. As long as you are willing to do this, you can probably get along just fine.

[Roger Chandler]

The tool rest thread has got me thinking (uh oh). First off, I am somewhat appalled by the whole thing. Not really though because it is indicative of the current state of manufacturing, not only here in this country but world wide. High quality products seem to have been relegated to the same archive as "backwards compatibility". Not to say that there are not good products out there because there are and some exceptional ones as well. But the "mainstream" stuff is just not making it.


The "unnamed manufacturer" of the part in question is well known and, as I understand it, a great supporter of this forum. I once posted a comment about a planer I bought from this same manufacturer that had a nasty habit of slinging the drive chain off it's sprockets. There was no way to remove a link because then the chain would have been too short. And no adjustment to be found anywhere. A conversation with the manufacturer's support people yielded this comment: "Oh yeah… that's a problem… no, there is no way to adjust it. No, we can't really do anything about it…" I ended up fabricating a tensioner for the chain which took care of the problem.


Some time later I posted this "story:" here on SMC. The aficionados of this unnamed manufacturer thundered into the conversation and I was throughly castigated for being unfair. The main reason given was that my machine was one made in the early days of the company's existence and that their quality had "come up" dramatically in the intervening years as had their customer support. But now. here we are reading about the same kind of nonsense. Sorry… nothing we can do. And so machine owners are left with having to spend additional time and money modifying their equipment, essentially completing the manufacturing process themselves. I suppose one could justify this by considering the lower cost of these machines as compared to more costly options and accepting the "you get what you pay for" philosophy.


This would not be too much of an issue if it were not so prevalent. Unfortunately, this is the prevailing attitude of manufacturers in general. One of the largest manufacturers of computers and personal electronic devices has had an ongoing issue with their charger cords which fray and short out with distressing regularity. It's an issue that has been discussed "ad nauseum" on the internet. And still, the manufacturer not only does nothing to correct the problem, they refuse to even acknowledge it. Examples like this are so numerous that it would be folly to attempt to document all of them.


These large "global" corporations are IMMHO, simply too large and cumbersome to have the flexibility to move quickly to deal with issues like these. The ones that get the top marks for responsiveness and customer service tend to be the smaller, privately owned companies. These guys can be much lighter on their feet and can make changes much faster and at much less cost when the need arrises. Their products tend to cost more initially but, more often than not, the higher cost is offset by better quality, longer working life, fewer problems and more responsive service when it is needed.


I would suggest that if you are going to buy from a company selling the lowest cost option, you might expect to encounter some issues you are going to have to deal with yourself. As long as you are willing to do this, you can probably get along just fine.

Well said, David!

[Hilel Salomon]

When you write about the "afficionadoes" of a manufacturer getting angry, it reminds me of the time, I bought two jaw adapters from a very famous manufacturer so that I could use my Vicmarc jaws. They were made horribly, and I wanted to warn people of this fact. Craft Supplies mercifully took them back and they were ultimately taken off the market. In the meantime, however, I got vilified by numerous people and one of the moderators wrote about how he hated cry babies who didn't simply go to the source. Others wrote that I was quite dumb and that they couldn't possibly have been made by that outfit. The boxes they came in proved otherwise, but I gave up. I generally give very positive reviews of tools that I use, but I think that it is a good idea to let people know it when even a conscientious manufacturer makes a shoddy product. One of the problems is that some manufacturers want to make every conceivable product, and they wind up making them in China or elsewhere. I too have had nothing but good luck and good service from the smaller, individual makers of products.

[Bob Bergstrom]

The woodworking industry is far ahead of the software industry. How many new operating system have been delivered so buggy they bearly worked. At least the software company could supply updates for free that eventually fixed most problems. A poorly design power tool can result in big lawsuits, but that only happens after the fact.

[Keith Outten]

Come on David don't bash us again with the problem you had in a previous thread. Let it go!!!!

Get out your checkbook and order a very high quality machine and get back to us with a review.
.

[David DeCristoforo]

Keith, I fail to see how relating a past event to a current event could be construed as "bashing" you.
I am simply trying to make a point, not about any particular manufacturer but about the state of
large scale manufacturing in general. These are common events, not random anomalies and are indicative
of the need for some changes in consciousness. The only way this will come about is if individuals speak
up both verbally and with their dollars.

If you have a problem with this, it's your site and you can do as you wish. Delete the thread or lock it
or block my account... whatever you want to do. But that will not change the situation.

[Geoff Whaling]

Come on David don't bash us again with the problem you had in a previous thread. Let it go!!!!

Get out your checkbook and order a very high quality machine and get back to us with a review.
.

Clearly the manufacturer in question has not changed their processes to respond to what is considered by most wood turners, experienced & novice, to be a problem.

I tend to agree with most of what David has said, particularly the phrase "you get what you pay for." There are a few known issues with certain lathes that the manufacturers have not addressed despite representations from turners more than qualified to give that sort of advice. Why the manufacturers choose to ignore suggestions to improve their products is beyond me as a more user friendly & "safer" product is surely a more marketable product?

In my particular instance I recently purchased a new midi lathe - a Vicmarc VL150 plus extension bed and a custom modification to the tail stock quill that I particularly wanted. The Vicmarc VL150's purchase price is well over twice the price of most competitors products. I researched many options including much larger lathes as a replacement for both my original Australian made Woodfast M908 and Nova Teknatool Mercury lathes. So why would I spend twice as much? A - locally manufactured, quality & service. Vicmarc have already made several design changes to the VL150 in response to their own market research and from customers feed back. You can't ask for more than that, but then that is what you pay for.

[Thom Sturgill]

The woodworking industry is far ahead of the software industry. How many new operating system have been delivered so buggy they bearly worked. At least the software company could supply updates for free that eventually fixed most problems. A poorly design power tool can result in big lawsuits, but that only happens after the fact.

To be a fiar comparison, your woodworking machine would have to be as complex as a modern car (or farm combine) and have to issue a new, drastically re-designed, model every three to five years.

How many moving parts does your lathe have? Or your table saw?

[Thom Sturgill]

One point - I do not think the 'manufacturer' in this case actually manufactures anything. He is an importer. Granted, he imports in such quantity that he gets customized work, but at heart isn't he just buying someone else's machines and putting his label on them?

[david privett]

all I can say at this time is that the griz g0766 with its minor problems is still a huge bargain I my view, The more I use mine the more I like it and learn how to get around the small issues. I did not buy a Rolls Royce ,but It feels almost like driving one!

[Keith Outten]

Keith, I fail to see how relating a past event to a current event could be construed as "bashing" you.
I am simply trying to make a point, not about any particular manufacturer but about the state of
large scale manufacturing in general. These are common events, not random anomalies and are indicative
of the need for some changes in consciousness. The only way this will come about is if individuals speak
up both verbally and with their dollars.

If you have a problem with this, it's your site and you can do as you wish. Delete the thread or lock it
or block my account... whatever you want to do. But that will not change the situation.

David,

You say that you are not referring to any particular manufacturer but both myself and Thom new right away which company you meant. You also provide a lot of details concerning your complaint, you might as well have used their name. It seems to me you have a grudge, whether its warranted or not is not relevant here as our policy is not to allow a trial here with only one side of the story being told.

Everyone knows that when a company brings a new machine to market there will most likely be problems that need to be addressed. I'm sure you have heard of the old saying about never buying a first year model automobile unless you are willing to deal with problems.

When any company ships a thousand good machines to one with a problem thats a good ratio, as I said before nobody builds perfect machines. After twelve years sitting here every single day I have not seen any situation that is indicative of repetitive problems with large scale manufacturers. If you feel differently take your case to the manufacturers directly, don't do it here. SawMill Creek is a woodworking Forum and its not our mission to get involved in disputes when we don't have access to all the facts.