Hot Hide Glue Question

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,
One method of doing complex designs is using "The assembly board method",that's where you use hide glue and lay out the design on brown kraft paper.Once the design is completed,then you glue it down to the surface,and remove the paper after it dries.I took a 1 day class with Patrick Edwards at Marc Adams school of woodworking on this method.He is a master with Hot hide glue,I think he is the one that came up with old brown glue. The veneering/marquetry he has done with hot hide glue is pretty amazing!

That sounds similar, in a way, to how marquetry is done today. When doing marquetry, you take the background and put wide blue tape on the glue face. Then, you can lay each individual piece of the marquetry design into it's place, with it held in place by the blue tape. When completed, you put wide veneer tape over the whole show face and remove the blue tape. After glue up, you can remove the veneer tape with water.

I assume what you would do with hide glue and the brown paper is that you'd glue the paper to the background on the show face. Then as you placed each piece of the marquetry, you'd coat it with hide glue before putting it in place.

One issue is that you're working with a mirror image of the design since you see it from the glue face, while with the blue tape you're working from the show face and see the actual design. But like the old time printers who could read backwards text perfectly, I guess you'd learn how to deal with the mirror image.

I assume that once you get everything laid, you hammer veneer the design onto the substrate. When the glue is set and dried, you might be able to remove the kraft paper with water, or it could be sanded off.

I wonder if our ancestors did this, or if it is a modern invention.

Mike

[Max Neu]

Mike,
I don't think it's a modern invention,most everything Patrick does is from the historical way's.I know it's a French technique,so maybe the American's did it a different way?He said he spent several years studying veneering/marquetry in France,so that's where a lot of his techniques are from. I would visit Patrick's website and watch some of his video's on youtube,that will give you a better idea of the technique.Also,I was picking his brain a little bit about hot hide glue when I was talking to him last year,and he said you should abrade everything with a toothing blade before applying hot hide glue,even rub joints.He definitely knows his stuff,I don't think he even owns a power tool,or a bottle of modern glue.

[Max Neu]

Regarding removing the kraft paper, it comes off with cold water.

[Warren Mickley]

Roubo (1774) illustrates the use of paper for some work. For instance, if a flower made up of many pieces is to be inlaid into a surface, he first glues all the flower pieces together on paper, then tears the paper away around the edges so he can scribe the outline of the flower on the background for the excavation. I don't think he uses paper for work like you have shown, Mike.

[russell lusthaus]

It would be interesting to learn more about the Turkish bows you produce. I know the best western bows are often made from pernambuco and that bow making is an art that takes years to master.

Mike

Hi Mike

While I am merely a student in learning the art of producing the Asian Style / Turkish Bows, there are a number of locations on the web for you explore if you are interested. ATARN is one and for a more general primitive bowmaking, check out Primitive Archer (which is where I often) post, focusing on all types of primitive bows, but mainly the different kinds of American flat bows and English longbows - although there is a sub group for the Horn Bows I mentioned above.

Bow making is definitely an art, and the Asian style bows even more so that the American or English. I have never come across pernambuco so I cant comment on that but I can tell you that Osage and Yew are the two most sought after woods for primitive bowmaking on the left side of the pond. Locust, hickory, and vine maple are some other often used woods.

Russ

[Mike Henderson]

I've read over and over again that you can put finish over hide glue and the hide glue doesn't show. I'm doing a project with hide glue and I got some hide glue on the wood from my fingers - got hide glue on my fingers as I was applying the glue to a joint. When I applied shellac, the hide glue marks were very obvious - they were lighter than the rest of the wood that was finished.

And it seems to me that this would be the case. There should be a difference between the color of wood that absorbs the finish and where the glue is and the finish can't get to the wood.

So what's going on? Why do people claim that you can finish over hide glue and it won't show?

Mike

[Max Neu]

I've read over and over again that you can put finish over hide glue and the hide glue doesn't show. I'm doing a project with hide glue and I got some hide glue on the wood from my fingers - got hide glue on my fingers as I was applying the glue to a joint. When I applied shellac, the hide glue marks were very obvious - they were lighter than the rest of the wood that was finished.

And it seems to me that this would be the case. There should be a difference between the color of wood that absorbs the finish and where the glue is and the finish can't get to the wood.

So what's going on? Why do people claim that you can finish over hide glue and it won't show?

Mike

I have never understood that either,I have never noticed hot hide glue not being visible after a finish is applied on top of it.I have learned to be even more careful with it than pva glue,because not only does it show after the finish, but it's harder to sand off.

[Mike Henderson]

Another issue: I was building a box so that I could work with hot hide glue. I used miter joints, as I have many times with PVA glue, and cut the miters on the Kapex (they were good miters). Glued up the box with hot hide glue. Then I cut the top off and was applying shellac on the inside of the box (I had sanded it earlier). As I was applying the shellac, I heard a "pop". Investigating, I found that one of the miters had come unglued.

I then took a soft hammer and tapped on the inside of the side and broke the other glue joint apart. I've never had that problem with PVA.

Some time back, I was talking with a luthier and asked how he removed the top of a violin or cello. I commented that he couldn't heat the whole joint - and in any case, he'd risk damaging the finish. He told me that he works a pallet knife between the top and side and then works around the top. He said that hide glue does not have good strength in tension so he can usually remove the top without damage.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

I've been told that the tops for the bowed instruments are glued on with weaker watered down glue so that they can be repaired ,and I have seen a careful and competent repair man easily remove some tops and struggle with others that were clamped to tight ,or with too strong glue ,or both. So I doubt that is comparable to your situation with the box corners. Sometimes the end grain is first "sized" with a coat of hide glue before actual gluing ,but I don't know enough about it to say that was the problem.

[Mike Henderson]

I've been told that the tops for the bowed instruments are glued on with weaker watered down glue so that they can be repaired ,and I have seen a careful and competent repair man easily remove some tops and struggle with others that were clamped to tight ,or with too strong glue ,or both. So I doubt that is comparable to your situation with the box corners. Sometimes the end grain is first "sized" with a coat of hide glue before actual gluing ,but I don't know enough about it to say that was the problem.

Yep, I sized it first.

I wonder if maybe I made the glue too thin. In reading about hide glue, it says to make it where it flows off the brush in a stream and not in "drops". That's the way I had the glue. And it was up to temperature - about 145 degrees F.

Mike

[Max Neu]

I have done quite a bit of testing with hot hide glue,and the more I tested,the less confident I am with it.You don't realize how good PVA glue really is until you spend some time with hot hide glue.I suppose you can make it work for you if you are really determined.

[russell lusthaus]

If memory serves, Fine Wood Working did a glue test a few years back and found Hot Hide Glue stronger than say, the Titebonds. Of course, both are stronger then the wood, so I never really understood the need for the stronger glue - it is the dried glue properties that are important other than its strength ie - its water resistance, its ability to release under heat, its ability to flex or stretch and then return wo cracking, etc. PVAs are great because they are easy to use and are generally water resistant or proof, but they don't release the same as Hide Glue and they do not bond the same way as Hide Glue does to other natural material like horn and sinew, so their use for me is limited to more modern woodworking type projects.

[Mike Henderson]

If memory serves, Fine Wood Working did a glue test a few years back and found Hot Hide Glue stronger than say, the Titebonds. Of course, both are stronger then the wood, so I never really understood the need for the stronger glue - it is the dried glue properties that are important other than its strength ie - its water resistance, its ability to release under heat, its ability to flex or stretch and then return wo cracking, etc. PVAs are great because they are easy to use and are generally water resistant or proof, but they don't release the same as Hide Glue and they do not bond the same way as Hide Glue does to other natural material like horn and sinew, so their use for me is limited to more modern woodworking type projects.

I'm not sure I agree with some of your comments. My understanding is that hide glue is not water resistant - that it will dissolve in water and that's one way people get hide glue joints to release (in addition to heat). Also, from personal experience and from reading, I believe that hide glue will set hard and will not flex. PVA does not set as hard and is designed to give to accommodate some wood movement.

Like almost every product, hide glue has advantages and disadvantages. If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages - for your application - you should use it. If the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, you should not use it.

Mike

[Warren Mickley]

Using hide glue is an art. It is not the kind of thing where you can read the label and follow directions; it is very helpful to have experience seeing skilled workers use it. I was shown how to use hide glue just about fifty years ago by a man whose family started making violins in 1633. And early on I had friends in the restoration business whom I often saw working. This helps one get a feel for how it works. I now use hot hide glue almost exclusively.

Hide glue is also just a lot nicer for repair work: easier to get apart, easier to clean up, easier to reapply glue to old surfaces. If somebody brings me damaged furniture that was put together with PVA or something, I tell them it was not designed to be repaired.

[Max Neu]

I don't think hot hide glue is a good choice for the casual user,I think it takes a long time and full commitment to be consistently successful with it.A few years ago I took a weekend class with David Orth on hot hide glue ,I learned quite a bit from him.He actually recommended not using it unless you have a specific reason to.He also talked about the importance of learning how to repair bad joints,because you will definitely be dealing with them alot more than with modern glues.I just can't get myself to use it,by the time I put alot of time and effort in a project,I don't want to take the risk of having problems with the glue.